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Teaching Pottery to Adults with Disabilities


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#1 GEP

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:32 PM

This question is for those who teach pottery classes for adults, although I would welcome responses from anyone with thoughts on this subject. Does anyone have experience teaching adults with learning disabilities, such as autism and ADHD? Please share your experiences, along with your suggestions for how best to provide a good experience for these students. 

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#2 Marcia Selsor

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:20 PM

I used to volunteer at an adult drop in center. We did small projects around a table in a little room. I usually had four or 5 people there. I took in tiles and had overglaze enamels. We did some small pieces with coils. I also made whistles with them.
One big guy would tell weird stories. I later found out that was the only time he ever talked.
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#3 Stephen Robison

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:34 PM

This question is for those who teach pottery classes for adults, although I would welcome responses from anyone with thoughts on this subject. Does anyone have experience teaching adults with learning disabilities, such as autism and ADHD? Please share your experiences, along with your suggestions for how best to provide a good experience for these students. 

Mea


Many times I have had students that need that extra push or more step by step demonstrations. With some I have found it most beneficial to stick to the technique side and leave out concept in their initial introduction to a form. Then slowly walking them through each step is the best direction. Waiting until they get each step until moving on to the next. I have also had students with sometimes severe dyslexia. Teaching them to mix glaze has had its challenges. I find most can grasp the scoop method and so I have broken down several materials that are commonly used into a certain scoop size equivalent to 1000 grams and 500 grams. Of course it brings new challenges, but many times these can be overcome with a little more patients and slowing down with the addition of very descriptive directions and often times reiterations. This is true for all of my students.
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#4 neilestrick

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 03:50 PM

I have found that simplifying the process as much as possible really helps, like doing a project that requires doing the same couple of steps over and over (roll a coil, smear it on, roll a coil, smear it on...), and having a specific object to make (bowl, vase, etc.), rather than leaving it open to them. The fewer decisions they have to make the better. Then they can just enjoy working with the clay and not get frustrated with aesthetic choices. As they become familiar with the process the design ideas will come on their own.
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#5 GEP

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 10:26 AM

Thank you all for the responses!

Marcia, in your example when you had 4-5 students, were they all disabled, or was it a mix of disabled and non-disabled students? At my community center, we teach classes that are open to the public, which means most of the students are not disabled. So when a person with special needs wants to take a class, does anyone have experience or advice on how to incorporate them into a class with non- disabled classmates? Also, has anyone taught wheel-throwing to these students?

Mea
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#6 neilestrick

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 11:28 AM

Thank you all for the responses!

Marcia, in your example when you had 4-5 students, were they all disabled, or was it a mix of disabled and non-disabled students? At my community center, we teach classes that are open to the public, which means most of the students are not disabled. So when a person with special needs wants to take a class, does anyone have experience or advice on how to incorporate them into a class with non- disabled classmates? Also, has anyone taught wheel-throwing to these students?

Mea


I had an adult with early onset Alzheimers. She tried throwing, but the number of steps required were too much for her to follow and she ate up all my attention. So I set her up to do some handbuilding while the rest of the class was throwing. By doing a simpler project, she could focus better, and I didn't have to be by her side the whole time and could help my other students.
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#7 Lucille Oka

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 06:39 PM

This question is for those who teach pottery classes for adults, although I would welcome responses from anyone with thoughts on this subject. Does anyone have experience teaching adults with learning disabilities, such as autism and ADHD? Please share your experiences, along with your suggestions for how best to provide a good experience for these students.

Mea



For students with learning disabilities give them all the same project to produce. Have a completed project on display that they can handle and pass around. Do your demonstration and provide an image of it on the board or wall so it can be referred to when needed. They will look at each other's work while they are working to help them reach the goal.

Be aware of the clay eaters! Students with sight impairment may do this. I gasped when I saw this and I thanked God it was just clay. I told her and her attendant she is not to eat the clay. He explained to me that she uses her other sensory mechanisms for recognition and understanding. I said, "Uh huh, I understand. You can smell it, feel it, but don't eat the clay!"

Just incase always use all non toxic supplies, all of the time, without exception. If your students come with attendants be sure to inform them to be sure their clients do not eat the supplies.



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#8 Marcia Selsor

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:15 AM

Thank you all for the responses!

Marcia, in your example when you had 4-5 students, were they all disabled, or was it a mix of disabled and non-disabled students? At my community center, we teach classes that are open to the public, which means most of the students are not disabled. So when a person with special needs wants to take a class, does anyone have experience or advice on how to incorporate them into a class with non- disabled classmates? Also, has anyone taught wheel-throwing to these students?

Mea

They were all adult mental challenged. It would vary on the numbers but usually a small group around the table. Mostly they were 30s-40s.


Marcia

#9 Pres

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:33 PM

This question is for those who teach pottery classes for adults, although I would welcome responses from anyone with thoughts on this subject. Does anyone have experience teaching adults with learning disabilities, such as autism and ADHD? Please share your experiences, along with your suggestions for how best to provide a good experience for these students.

Mea


My son was diagnosed with ADD in the 80's. After his diagnosis, and interviews with my wife and myself the psychologist declared that I was also ADD. Very possible, all of my sons characteristics match my own.

I have worked over the years with a wide variety of "special needs" elementary, and secondary students. First thing I would suggest is never underestimate, don't judge, and approach it as a normal class situation. Let the clay speak for itself. As with Elementary art classes keep demonstrations and lectures short-in longer demos have them work with you a step at a time. Each of them will react differently yet the same to the clay. Some will not respond well to the feel or texture-have different types of clay bodies, some will not be able to manipulate the clay quite the way they want to-minimalize expectations, let the clay work the way it wants to, and be constantly walking around to lend a hand. Often in case such as this it was extremely important to have them do as much as possible to make things look and be right(survivability). I would take special care in drying, and judiciously repairing work after class-do not overdo this it is only important for survivability, not for perfection, leave their marks be, do not smooth out edges or decorations, leave the piece stand on its own-it is theirs.

As for me-I have always found the clay to be anchoring. I have had time where wrapping my brain around glaze chemistry or some other things has been difficult and I have had to reread several times. I also have always had a problems with names, of people I know and meet, or even the historical ones. Funny thing is with my past students that I meet I can't remember their names, but I remember their pots! Some things are more important to me I guess as and ADD However, I love to work with computers, they help me organize and direct my thoughts. I have just finished building my first one because I wanted to see if I could-it is running great!

Simply retired teacher, not dead, living the dream. on and on and. . . . on. . . .                                                                                 http://picworkspottery.blogspot.com/


#10 Pres

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:40 PM


This question is for those who teach pottery classes for adults, although I would welcome responses from anyone with thoughts on this subject. Does anyone have experience teaching adults with learning disabilities, such as autism and ADHD? Please share your experiences, along with your suggestions for how best to provide a good experience for these students.

Mea



For students with learning disabilities give them all the same project to produce. Have a completed project on display that they can handle and pass around. Do your demonstration and provide an image of it on the board or wall so it can be referred to when needed. They will look at each other's work while they are working to help them reach the goal.

Be aware of the clay eaters! Students with sight impairment may do this. I gasped when I saw this and I thanked God it was just clay. I told her and her attendant she is not to eat the clay. He explained to me that she uses her other sensory mechanisms for recognition and understanding. I said, "Uh huh, I understand. You can smell it, feel it, but don't eat the clay!"

Just incase always use all non toxic supplies, all of the time, without exception. If your students come with attendants be sure to inform them to be sure their clients do not eat the supplies.



Students with learning abilities are much different than students in the areas of what we used to call trainable, and educable special ed students. Students with learning abilities usually do not have to taste the clay or the glazes to understand it. At the same time they are not mentally deficient-just think differently. Autistic adults will usually be able to respond well to clay experiences-they love to manipulate their environments. Pinch pot forming is a great way to get them to start manipulating the clay. I found that coil construction was a harder concept than slabs for them also, For this reason I did more slab work with them after pinch pots. Once they got over the preconceptions of beautiful pottery being round and symmetric then go to coils.

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#11 GEP

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 09:57 AM


This question is for those who teach pottery classes for adults, although I would welcome responses from anyone with thoughts on this subject. Does anyone have experience teaching adults with learning disabilities, such as autism and ADHD? Please share your experiences, along with your suggestions for how best to provide a good experience for these students.

Mea


My son was diagnosed with ADD in the 80's. After his diagnosis, and interviews with my wife and myself the psychologist declared that I was also ADD. Very possible, all of my sons characteristics match my own.

I have worked over the years with a wide variety of "special needs" elementary, and secondary students. First thing I would suggest is never underestimate, don't judge, and approach it as a normal class situation. Let the clay speak for itself. As with Elementary art classes keep demonstrations and lectures short-in longer demos have them work with you a step at a time. Each of them will react differently yet the same to the clay. Some will not respond well to the feel or texture-have different types of clay bodies, some will not be able to manipulate the clay quite the way they want to-minimalize expectations, let the clay work the way it wants to, and be constantly walking around to lend a hand. Often in case such as this it was extremely important to have them do as much as possible to make things look and be right(survivability). I would take special care in drying, and judiciously repairing work after class-do not overdo this it is only important for survivability, not for perfection, leave their marks be, do not smooth out edges or decorations, leave the piece stand on its own-it is theirs.

As for me-I have always found the clay to be anchoring. I have had time where wrapping my brain around glaze chemistry or some other things has been difficult and I have had to reread several times. I also have always had a problems with names, of people I know and meet, or even the historical ones. Funny thing is with my past students that I meet I can't remember their names, but I remember their pots! Some things are more important to me I guess as and ADD However, I love to work with computers, they help me organize and direct my thoughts. I have just finished building my first one because I wanted to see if I could-it is running great!


Pres, thank you. I really appreciate your perspective and teaching advice, as well as the teaching tips from everyone else. My experience is very limited, so I feel like I'm in the dark. What I am concluding from all the responses is that it's really important for a disabled adult to have a class where the projects are well-suited for their capabilities, and that the teaching approach is much different.

So my next question is for Pres (but really anyone with thoughts please chime in), if you or your son were signing up for a pottery class at a community center (the kind of class where you are hoping to continue for a long-term, not a one time class), would you tell your teacher about the ADD? In my case, I recently had two students with disabilities, and neither of them felt it was necessary to tell me. I understand there is an embarrassment factor, but if they had asked me to protect their privacy, I totally would have. Instead it was a bad experience for them and me. My teaching style is very direct and demanding, which (now I know) is a poor way to treat an autistic adult. Did I have the right to know, or is the disabled person's right to privacy more important? I hope I don't sound like I'm trying to defend myself, I honestly don't know the answer to this and I'm open to everyone's thoughts.

Mea
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#12 atanzey

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:40 AM

Mea - Maybe there isn't a 'right answer', but now that you've identified a problem, how can you address it? If you provide a syllabus, or an information sheet, you might consider adding a paragraph about your teaching style and what you expect from students, and suggest there that to avoid potential conflicts, students with special circumstances will be better served by letting you know, and then the discussion of privacy. That might benefit more than just special needs students.

Alice

#13 Pres

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 04:07 PM



This question is for those who teach pottery classes for adults, although I would welcome responses from anyone with thoughts on this subject. Does anyone have experience teaching adults with learning disabilities, such as autism and ADHD? Please share your experiences, along with your suggestions for how best to provide a good experience for these students.

Mea


My son was diagnosed with ADD in the 80's. After his diagnosis, and interviews with my wife and myself the psychologist declared that I was also ADD. Very possible, all of my sons characteristics match my own.

I have worked over the years with a wide variety of "special needs" elementary, and secondary students. First thing I would suggest is never underestimate, don't judge, and approach it as a normal class situation. Let the clay speak for itself. As with Elementary art classes keep demonstrations and lectures short-in longer demos have them work with you a step at a time. Each of them will react differently yet the same to the clay. Some will not respond well to the feel or texture-have different types of clay bodies, some will not be able to manipulate the clay quite the way they want to-minimalize expectations, let the clay work the way it wants to, and be constantly walking around to lend a hand. Often in case such as this it was extremely important to have them do as much as possible to make things look and be right(survivability). I would take special care in drying, and judiciously repairing work after class-do not overdo this it is only important for survivability, not for perfection, leave their marks be, do not smooth out edges or decorations, leave the piece stand on its own-it is theirs.

As for me-I have always found the clay to be anchoring. I have had time where wrapping my brain around glaze chemistry or some other things has been difficult and I have had to reread several times. I also have always had a problems with names, of people I know and meet, or even the historical ones. Funny thing is with my past students that I meet I can't remember their names, but I remember their pots! Some things are more important to me I guess as and ADD However, I love to work with computers, they help me organize and direct my thoughts. I have just finished building my first one because I wanted to see if I could-it is running great!


Pres, thank you. I really appreciate your perspective and teaching advice, as well as the teaching tips from everyone else. My experience is very limited, so I feel like I'm in the dark. What I am concluding from all the responses is that it's really important for a disabled adult to have a class where the projects are well-suited for their capabilities, and that the teaching approach is much different.

So my next question is for Pres (but really anyone with thoughts please chime in), if you or your son were signing up for a pottery class at a community center (the kind of class where you are hoping to continue for a long-term, not a one time class), would you tell your teacher about the ADD? In my case, I recently had two students with disabilities, and neither of them felt it was necessary to tell me. I understand there is an embarrassment factor, but if they had asked me to protect their privacy, I totally would have. Instead it was a bad experience for them and me. My teaching style is very direct and demanding, which (now I know) is a poor way to treat an autistic adult. Did I have the right to know, or is the disabled person's right to privacy more important? I hope I don't sound like I'm trying to defend myself, I honestly don't know the answer to this and I'm open to everyone's thoughts.

Mea


I never identified myself as ADD to other individuals after diagnosed. It was not relevant. My generation grew up without those labels and so we as individuals had to learn to cope. Some did , many did not. At the same time my son did not grow up having to cope individually-he had support networks that helped him, so he has more of a tendency to identify himself to individuals. I think the answer to the question will be up to the individual, As for privacy, if they identify themselves to you, not a problem-if you access records illegally-big problem.

Strategies-I often gave out a 5-7 card asking for the answers to several question, these would include: Name, Phone number, emergency contact number, email address, previous clay experience & project interests, interests & hobbies, allergies, medical conditions. From this I could get quite a bit of information about the student. If their hobbies included other crafts or sports it gave me some idea of their dexterity. If there were projects they were interested in doing I could lean things their way. If they had allergies to fungus or algae or other skin irritants I would know some things there. Think of your own questions that may help you out-keep the cards till the end of class-destroy them. Students do not have to answer all of the questions if they don't want.

Personally, demanding is not the way to go with any adult. Lighten up, go with the flow. However, post rules for the studio, model procedures, have set areas for working, storing, glazing, etc, and explain the rational behind everything in the first session. A syllabus with rules, expectations and what you expect them to bring to class is helpful and will allow you to set the tone without sounding pushy or demanding. Word carefully.

Simply retired teacher, not dead, living the dream. on and on and. . . . on. . . .                                                                                 http://picworkspottery.blogspot.com/


#14 Nelly

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 09:49 PM




This question is for those who teach pottery classes for adults, although I would welcome responses from anyone with thoughts on this subject. Does anyone have experience teaching adults with learning disabilities, such as autism and ADHD? Please share your experiences, along with your suggestions for how best to provide a good experience for these students.

Mea


My son was diagnosed with ADD in the 80's. After his diagnosis, and interviews with my wife and myself the psychologist declared that I was also ADD. Very possible, all of my sons characteristics match my own.

I have worked over the years with a wide variety of "special needs" elementary, and secondary students. First thing I would suggest is never underestimate, don't judge, and approach it as a normal class situation. Let the clay speak for itself. As with Elementary art classes keep demonstrations and lectures short-in longer demos have them work with you a step at a time. Each of them will react differently yet the same to the clay. Some will not respond well to the feel or texture-have different types of clay bodies, some will not be able to manipulate the clay quite the way they want to-minimalize expectations, let the clay work the way it wants to, and be constantly walking around to lend a hand. Often in case such as this it was extremely important to have them do as much as possible to make things look and be right(survivability). I would take special care in drying, and judiciously repairing work after class-do not overdo this it is only important for survivability, not for perfection, leave their marks be, do not smooth out edges or decorations, leave the piece stand on its own-it is theirs.

As for me-I have always found the clay to be anchoring. I have had time where wrapping my brain around glaze chemistry or some other things has been difficult and I have had to reread several times. I also have always had a problems with names, of people I know and meet, or even the historical ones. Funny thing is with my past students that I meet I can't remember their names, but I remember their pots! Some things are more important to me I guess as and ADD However, I love to work with computers, they help me organize and direct my thoughts. I have just finished building my first one because I wanted to see if I could-it is running great!


Pres, thank you. I really appreciate your perspective and teaching advice, as well as the teaching tips from everyone else. My experience is very limited, so I feel like I'm in the dark. What I am concluding from all the responses is that it's really important for a disabled adult to have a class where the projects are well-suited for their capabilities, and that the teaching approach is much different.

So my next question is for Pres (but really anyone with thoughts please chime in), if you or your son were signing up for a pottery class at a community center (the kind of class where you are hoping to continue for a long-term, not a one time class), would you tell your teacher about the ADD? In my case, I recently had two students with disabilities, and neither of them felt it was necessary to tell me. I understand there is an embarrassment factor, but if they had asked me to protect their privacy, I totally would have. Instead it was a bad experience for them and me. My teaching style is very direct and demanding, which (now I know) is a poor way to treat an autistic adult. Did I have the right to know, or is the disabled person's right to privacy more important? I hope I don't sound like I'm trying to defend myself, I honestly don't know the answer to this and I'm open to everyone's thoughts.

Mea


I never identified myself as ADD to other individuals after diagnosed. It was not relevant. My generation grew up without those labels and so we as individuals had to learn to cope. Some did , many did not. At the same time my son did not grow up having to cope individually-he had support networks that helped him, so he has more of a tendency to identify himself to individuals. I think the answer to the question will be up to the individual, As for privacy, if they identify themselves to you, not a problem-if you access records illegally-big problem.

Strategies-I often gave out a 5-7 card asking for the answers to several question, these would include: Name, Phone number, emergency contact number, email address, previous clay experience & project interests, interests & hobbies, allergies, medical conditions. From this I could get quite a bit of information about the student. If their hobbies included other crafts or sports it gave me some idea of their dexterity. If there were projects they were interested in doing I could lean things their way. If they had allergies to fungus or algae or other skin irritants I would know some things there. Think of your own questions that may help you out-keep the cards till the end of class-destroy them. Students do not have to answer all of the questions if they don't want.

Personally, demanding is not the way to go with any adult. Lighten up, go with the flow. However, post rules for the studio, model procedures, have set areas for working, storing, glazing, etc, and explain the rational behind everything in the first session. A syllabus with rules, expectations and what you expect them to bring to class is helpful and will allow you to set the tone without sounding pushy or demanding. Word carefully.


Dear All,

I am an adult educator. I totally agree with all written with regards to not treating any student in a different manner. I like the suggestions of breaking down projects into small and simple steps for all new to clay. I like the idea of protecting the integrity of the piece and at the same time ensuring that some small touch-ups may be required for the piece to survive the firing process.

I remember at one class I took at Anderson Ranch, the teacher actually wore a hat. He said "when I have this hat on, it means I am busy concentrating and cannot be bothered." This was an excellent strategy to ensure that he had his space in the class and that things ran smoothly. It prevented questions or students clinging to him during times when he was busy with some task.

Students with mental health or learning challenges can be hard in a classroom but not impossible. A teacher needs to be really sensitive to the unique needs of this individual and simply tune into their strenghts. In short, to work with what they have on-board and not try to change them to suit the exercise.

Another situation I recall a teacher once discussing had to do with an individual who had a visual challenge. The teacher in this instance simply focused on texture. She set the student up and provided her with the tools to create slabs and then had her engage in this work. She did this initially first with the class as an initial exercise. This helped the student gain confidence and provided her with the sense she was normalized in terms of the class work.

And yes, repeated instructions are helpful as well.

The issue of being told about a learning issue can be tricky. On one hand if it always helpful to know of a student with specific needs (particularly if they are issues that could be compromised in the envioroment) and on the other hand, you do not want to discriminate. The idea of handing out the paper with questions is a good idea if the student can read and respond. Alternatively, if language comprehension is an issue or even basic literacy, this may be something that you will have to be creative in trying to ascertain.

I like using language in the initial class such as "if there is anything I need to know to help you learn, please let me know after class or in some kind of communication" has been helpful to me. This also may be something included on a sign-up form that is confidential.

I think for the most part, all important aspects of this discussion have been covered well. It is not always easy to have a student in a class who is differently abled but we all have our strengths and areas of weakness. A good teacher will focus on the strengths and really work to these rather than fight and try to get the individual to conform. They will tell you clearly what they like or don't like within short order. It is here where you focus. This will show the student you respect them as a person who brings to the class a unique perspective or actions related to their learning experience.

After all, particularly with an introductory class in clay, you want it to be fun. Simple projects from making textured necklace medallions, pinch pots and slab wall hangings and/or vases. I know at the Gardiner, with the kids, they have them create their own little dragon or animal characters. I have seen this work well also.

In summary, I think the key in our world of so many different types of learners, the key is to normalize the individual and not bring or draw attention to their differences. If their actions become an issue in the class conduct than it will be an issue of teacher creativity in trying to show respect and at the same time maintain a climate of safety in the setting.

Good luck,

Nellie

#15 Lucille Oka

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:20 PM

Mea, the facility is a community center right; here today, maybe not tomorrow situation? Will you be expected to do evaluations if not, don't get involved in their private business it isn't necessary. Treat them like you would any other adult group that you are teaching ceramics. Keep the projects simple, tell them the rules, be aware of all activity, be friendly and have fun.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life".

#16 Pres

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:12 AM

Mea, the facility is a community center right; here today, maybe not tomorrow situation? Will you be expected to do evaluations if not, don't get involved in their private business it isn't necessary. Treat them like you would any other adult group that you are teaching ceramics. Keep the projects simple, tell them the rules, be aware of all activity, be friendly and have fun.




Even though it sounds stupid to bring it up, but is often overlooked.. .... .I would stress to the students that------There are no stupid questions.

Simply retired teacher, not dead, living the dream. on and on and. . . . on. . . .                                                                                 http://picworkspottery.blogspot.com/


#17 GEP

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 10:16 AM

Hi everybody,

Thank you so much for providing so much good information. I am going to use these responses to pull together some recommendations for my community center. Before I posted my questions here, I tried to google this subject, and didn't find a single reference! Lots of material is available for working with kids, but nothing for adults. This forum is awesome.

And just because I'm writing a thank you note, that doesn't mean I'm done with listening. If anyone has more to add to this thread, please do!

Mea
Mea Rhee
Good Elephant Pottery
http://www.goodelephant.com

#18 Idaho Potter

Idaho Potter

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:10 PM

Mea, I am not an educator, merely a potter who occasionally teaches. Summertimes, when I lived in the mountains, we had a one day event that offered experiences in all types of art to all types of children. I had children as young as two and as old as 16 at my table. I also had many children with special needs from ADD to cerebral palsy, to Downs to blind. At first I was scared that I'd do or say something wrong, but as it turned out, the kids were so into wanting to handle clay that--unless they needed specific help--they ignored me. Most of them were only at the table for 15 to 30 minutes so it was a quick turn-around for all of them. A few things that were constant for the 11 years I did this were:

If there was little dexterity, I had bisqued bowls (without a foot), canvas covered paddles, and showed them how to make a slab with the paddle. They loved
"spanking" the clay and then shaping it to the bowl.

There were many kids who returned year after year, they were generous in their time and helped those who were near them and needed help.

Many of the children with special needs also returned each year because it was something that they enjoyed and got better at each year. I loved it when they
got to the point of turning to a smaller child and say, "Try it this way--works for me."

The first year I had about 80 kids work at my table during the six hours of fun. The last year, we had over 200. By that time, two of my first "students" had become my assistants and when I left town, they were handling the crowds. Bless 'em, everyone.

#19 clay lover

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 10:05 PM

Mea, I applaud you for taking this on. I taught special needs children for years. Now I teach ' special needs ' adults. Every one thinks they are the most special and each of them needs a huge pieces of me. Posted Image
Seriously, The adults that those former 'special needs' kids became are every bit as challenging as they were as little people all those years ago.




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