MikeFaul Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 We are looking at purchasing a Ram Press from Ram Process to cut sprigs / tiles of original art work. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with the process of creating these tiles and using this sort of press on a production basis (creating several hundred tiles per day). If so, I'm trying to determine if the press can be configured to create a die much smaller than specified work area and reproduce small detail on a production basis. The tiles / sprigs we wish to cut will measure around 2.5 to 4 square inches in size and vary in shape. The text size will vary greatly from 8pt up to 30pt depending on design parameters. Some text will be recessed (cut into the tile), other times it will be raised (surface level). We will need to run a series of tiles then remove the die, mount a new die, run another series, and so on throughout the production day. I want to make sure this is the right machine for the job before we spend more money. Or should we look at another type of machine? We need to produce 100 to 150 tiles per hour consistently over a shift, and some of the designs are very intricate. We tried the Texas Tiler, but that machine was not able to consistently pick up small details and the makers told us it was not well suited for our application because of the need to strike with a mallet. If you do have this machine, I would be interested to know how long it takes to create a die. Or, do you use a service. If a service, which one. Also, how many impressions / tiles can you cut before you have to recast the die. And, what material do you use for your master? Thanks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 Mike I would contact some small niche tile companies for a better understanding of how they make their tiles. There are a few in Michigan and one in Silver City New Mexico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFaul Posted January 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 Mike I would contact some small niche tile companies for a better understanding of how they make their tiles. There are a few in Michigan and one in Silver City New Mexico This is pretty much the exact process we're looking at, but our tiles are miniature in comparison to even a 4" x 4" tile (16 square inches): http://www.motawi.com/pages/in-the-studio Many of our tiles will also have a higher relief and be attached to a secondary / vertical surface. They look like they are using a 60 ton Ram Press. We are speaking with he folks at Ram Process, but they won't give out any references, they say that we might be competitive to their customers and they don't want to reveal their customer's trade secrets. I have to respect that, and I don't want to know anyone's secrets, I'm just trying make sure this will work before I shell out $xx,xxx.xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glazenerd Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 Mike: I will be following this thread with interest: been weighing the pros and cons myself. Have some background info, places to look, and some responses from those who own and use them.I have a Northstar press- can do 12-15 an hour on it. Peter Pugger website had some links to studios in California who were using them to make tile. Not sure those links are still up. I do have several links of tiles companies that make some rather intricate pieces I can share. Nerd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldlady Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 someone here was asking about air release tiles some years ago. maybe you can find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted January 8, 2016 Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 Mike just call a few of those tile places and talk story to them as they are doing this nowYes you have some different details and by all means tell them those and ask what they thinkOn a side note Peter pugger makes ram presses now and had a super one on eBay last month for 17 or 20 k if I recallIt was new and was made for a client who never paid for it I thinkIt did not sell so it's most likely still in their shopI would call at least 3 small tile manufactures and talk story with them as they are users instead of ram press sales personsWay better info for you. One last note I have also seen a few of these presses show up at ceramic industrial auctions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFaul Posted January 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 Mike just call a few of those tile places and talk story to them as they are doing this now So, I just finished my first round of calls and this is what I learned... The presses are very reliable. Some tile shops have been running 10 to 15 years without any major failure on the press. They are reasonably low cost to operate. Despite what I was told by Ram Process, most of the tileworks I spoke to said they make their own masters and cast their own dies. They use non skilled labor as die makers and train them in house. They can cast about 4 to 5 dies per day. Which is really nice for us. They use a CNC machine to carve their masters. Most tile shops carve in wax, then cast the wax in poly. The die is cast in Hydrocal or similar gypsum based plaster material with embedded air lines. Purging the die is critical and new purging equipment from RAM works exceptionally well to both purge and prevent warping of the die. If the die is not purged properly the tile will not release properly from the die and the image may get trashed during the releasing process (we've seen this with the Texas Tiler). A die is good for between 200 and 300 strikes, then it needs to be recast. A poly master should last a good long time, I didn't get a life on these. We are considering cutting Delrin directly with the CNC and bypassing wax. Delrin, while brittle should last forever unless it chips due to breakage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mug Posted January 10, 2016 Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 Porous Resin has a longer life span than the gypsum products, but it cost quite a bit more. Rampress lists the resin, but I can't remember if there are other suppliers. Making your own tile mold is not rocket science, I would not farm out what should be done in house. If you were making a complex multi piece mold for production it would probably be smart to call a mold maker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFaul Posted January 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2016 Porous Resin has a longer life span than the gypsum products, but it cost quite a bit more. Rampress lists the resin, but I can't remember if there are other suppliers. Making your own tile mold is not rocket science, I would not farm out what should be done in house. If you were making a complex multi piece mold for production it would probably be smart to call a mold maker. After conversations with RAM, we concluded that carving models in wax and subsequently casting masters is not the way to go. Our tiles have a lot of fine detail. RAM tells us that the wax material does not do a good job replicating fine detail. So, the plan will be to cut masters directly, and cut out the intermediate casting step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted January 17, 2016 Report Share Posted January 17, 2016 Any luck with the peter pugger machine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFaul Posted January 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2016 Any luck with the peter pugger machine? It's a fantastic buy, but we're only pressing small logo tiles right now and attaching to mugs. I'm thinking a 30 ton press might be a little over kill. Even though that's a great buy it's still a lot more than I'm spending, and until I get my feet wet and have a solid process I want to watch my cash flow. I'm hoping it will be there in 30 days, because I might jump on it then if everything goes well and its still on the market. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFaul Posted January 30, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 Well our press shipped, should be here Tuesday or Wednesday next week... First order of Cerami-Cal has arrived. I thought it came in 50# bags like Hydra-Cal, so I ordered 4 bags. Oops, it comes in 100# bags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 Mike what press did you end up with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFaul Posted February 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 A tiny 2 1/2 ton press from RAM, this is completely new to us so I didn't want to spend too much money. This will work perfectly to press logo tiles and original artwork up to 6" square. No cups, plates or bowls of consequence. My next conundrum is figuring out how to turn our 2D sketches into 3D models to cast as dies. One of my guys is a master framer. He has a miter chopper, so we will be setting up a framing studio for the art tiles. I've sourced a load of black walnut, and oak barn wood for frames. We're working on a supply of reclaimed tobacco barn wood too. The first art tile design sketches are done, now we just need to start making masters My first load of Cerami-Cal arrived too, 400# The press was picked up by the freight company today, should be here by Thursday. Thanks for asking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pres Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 With the amount of expenditure in this process, you may find that a 3D printer would be useful for models. I am not certain of this, but it seems like the type of permanent model you should have would be workable with a printer. best, Pres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFaul Posted February 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 With the amount of expenditure in this process, you may find that a 3D printer would be useful for models. I am not certain of this, but it seems like the type of permanent model you should have would be workable with a printer. best, Pres Do you know of anyone using a 3D printer for this? RAM Process told us it wouldn't work. One was reason was time to fabricate the master given our production volumes. Second, was the need to have all of the cuts taper out slightly to facilitate release of the die once cast in CC. I've never done this before so I'm only going on what they've told me. The CNC can cut with a bit that will automatically create the correct tapper. We spoke with a tile shop in Michigan and they said go CNC for the same reasons. Their fabrication time from digital art to model was 4 hours, they cast 4 to 5 dies in a single day. That's a production load I would need to be able to operate at when we get to full capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JBaymore Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 Mike, One of the places I work in Japan a lot uses Rhinoceros CAD/CAM software (with the 3-D scanner too!) and a CNC machine to make the originals from which to make the master molds. Works great. They have not switched over to 3-D printing for masters... and my guess is that if it was better/faster/or even "doable", they would (money to invest not a big issue....huge cashflow). All this technology sits about 50 feet from three very large wood-fired noborigama. Go figure. The dichotomy that is Japan. I love it. best, ......................john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pres Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 With the amount of expenditure in this process, you may find that a 3D printer would be useful for models. I am not certain of this, but it seems like the type of permanent model you should have would be workable with a printer. best, Pres Do you know of anyone using a 3D printer for this? RAM Process told us it wouldn't work. One was reason was time to fabricate the master given our production volumes. Second, was the need to have all of the cuts taper out slightly to facilitate release of the die once cast in CC. I've never done this before so I'm only going on what they've told me. The CNC can cut with a bit that will automatically create the correct tapper. We spoke with a tile shop in Michigan and they said go CNC for the same reasons. Their fabrication time from digital art to model was 4 hours, they cast 4 to 5 dies in a single day. That's a production load I would need to be able to operate at when we get to full capacity. I really don't have a lot of experience there, just worked with 3D animation, Lightwave and Blender for 20 years teaching. Brainstorming about the 3D printer idea. I do believe that if it isn't happening yet, it will, with 3D router devices, printers and other devices coming about someone will hit on the tech to do the masters. best, pres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFaul Posted February 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 You're right, there's a 3D studio a block over from us, They have a few 3D printers, I helped them get their ceramics program started, I may walk over and see what they know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glazenerd Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 Mike: Please keep us posted on the progress with the Ram press. I have been looking at them, so I am more than interested how it works for you. I have a professional CAD system that I used in my home building days. It has a conversion module 2D to 3D. I have used it to draw out most of my geometric tiles, custom tile setters, and a few other items. It is always fun trying to factor in a 12-15% shrinkage rate into a design. I also used it to draw out the interior kiln dimensions, so I could accurately lay out a tile setter loading pattern. Nerd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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