Best Clay for Making a Dutch Oven or Bread Baking Cloche

[TonyC]

As I am contemplating making a Dutch oven or bread baking cloche for a relative for the holidays, I am realizing that I have some basic questions before starting.   All of my current work is done with various Cone 6 clays (B-Mix, etc.).   However,

1)  I am wondering if a Cone 10 clay is more durable than Cone 6 for an oven baking product?

2) Is there a specific type of clay which is more durable for oven use?

I am also curious as to any pitfalls when making something like this or more importantly so that it is durable for a "lifetime" of use in an oven.  Thanks for any help.   Can anyone point to a good video or YouTube lesson to help with this endeavor?

[Pres]

Interesting question @TonyC, but one that can be pretty easily answered from my experience. I have been making pottery for years for use around our household. My wife loves to cook using some of my bowls and casseroles that I have made over the years. She uses one large bowl to bake buffalo chicken dip in, This bowl is about 13 inches in diameter and 7 inches deep. She has also used casseroles to bake scalloped potatoes in, and other casseroles. We use teapots to heat up water in the microwave for tea, and use smaller bowls for microwave cooking. I have been firing ^6 since college, when I started teaching HS in  Central PA. Have sold ^6 stoneware pottery at Pens State festival and have never had a complaint.

 

best,

Pres

[PeterH]

A google search for site:community.ceramicartsdaily.org ovenware identifies several threads you may find interesting.

A lot seems to depends on how carefully the pot is going to be used.

... added because it emphasizes the edge between wall and floor

 

[TonyC]

1 hour ago, PeterH said:

A google search for site:community.ceramicartsdaily.org ovenware identifies several threads you may find interesting.

A lot seems to depends on how carefully the pot is going to be used.

... added because it emphasizes the edge between wall and floor

 

Thank you.   These were both interesting posts.   I think I will also check with the clay mfr.   Interesting that Laguna stated that Cone 6 were less susceptible to thermal shock than Cone 10 (opposite of my thinking), as were the Standard tech's comments on mullite content in 630.    This is a big part of what I was looking for.    As my relative is focusing more on the bread cloche, I need to read more about the proper pre-heating of the cloche and what that might do to the bread.  Yikes, this might be harder than I thought.  Welcome to the real world

[TonyC]

7 hours ago, Pres said:

Interesting question @TonyC, but one that can be pretty easily answered from my experience. I have been making pottery for years for use around our household. My wife loves to cook using some of my bowls and casseroles that I have made over the years. She uses one large bowl to bake buffalo chicken dip in, This bowl is about 13 inches in diameter and 7 inches deep. She has also used casseroles to bake scalloped potatoes in, and other casseroles. We use teapots to heat up water in the microwave for tea, and use smaller bowls for microwave cooking. I have been firing ^6 since college, when I started teaching HS in  Central PA. Have sold ^6 stoneware pottery at Pens State festival and have never had a complaint.

 

best,

Pres

Thanks Pres.   I see that you were also part of a former posting on this topic.   I saw a link to Laguna which shared that Cone 6 is more stable than Cone 10.   Do you have a specific clay you'd recommend?  I am going to explore further with the mfrs to learn more from their recommendations as well.  Thanks again for your comments.

[PeterH]

1 hour ago, TonyC said:

I need to read more about the proper pre-heating of the cloche and what that might do to the bread. 

Pre-heating from cold seems to be recommended practice. Don't know how severe the thermal shock is when you place the bread into the cloche.
https://delbuonosbakery.com/mastering-bread-baking-with-a-cloche-a-comprehensive-guide/
Cloche Preparation: Begin by placing your bread baking cloche, both the base and the lid, in a cold oven. It’s essential to allow the cloche to heat gradually with the oven to prevent thermal shock, which can damage the stoneware or earthenware.
... obviously only put the hot cloche down on an insulating surface, such as wood.

Interesting to see how nicely rounded the the transition from base to wall is. Probably because the resultant alignment of the clay particles minimizes the chances of type H cracks when it's thermally shocked.
https://ceramicsfieldguide.org/pdf/materials-handouts/ClayCracks.pdf

PS The subject of pizza stones comes up from time to time. Kiln shelves are often recommended - as a body less subject to thermal shock. So should you ever need a flat baking stone ...

 

[Pres]

I am presently using SC 630 and their SC 211. They are very different in their color, similar in feel, and both have been good for us as functional ware. When I talk about functional ware at home, one never knows if it is being used for what it was intended. A bowl might be treated as a casserole, a plate warmed in a microwave to heat up leftovers. I no longer sell at shows, and only have a few orders each year, just enough to keep the hobby from messing with the household budget.

 

best,

Pres

[TonyC]

@PeterH  Thank you very much for doing so much homework for me.   You get a gold star!!!   If I am ever successful, maybe I will send you a loaf          Great information, and the bakery article is exactly what I need to know after I make this crazy thing.   Much appreciated.   

 

[C.Banks]

8 hours ago, TonyC said:

 as were the Standard tech's comments on mullite content ...

I'm curious what the comments were.

Mullite is a useful thing.

[TonyC]

1 hour ago, C.Banks said:

I'm curious what the comments were.

Mullite is a useful thing.

In the post above called Bakeware Clay Body from October 3, 2022, the following was shared by IrenePots:

A while ago I  sent a question to Technical at Standard Ceramic about their 630 clay and what they meant by something in its online description.  Here's their answer.  Hope it helps

"We would recommend using 630 Stoneware if you plan on making bakeware or any product that might be exposed to heat regularly. The mullite "enhances thermal capabilities," which means that it will better withstand the repetitive heating/cooling that bakeware is exposed to". 

[Kelly in AK]

I haven’t done much baking using pottery, but I have done it. There are good reasons people who have access to metal pots and pans use them for cooking. What I’m about to say is a mix of what I’ve read, been told, and my own experience. Do not take my words as gospel, just as information to add to your quest. Ordinary stoneware can be used for baking as long as:

1. It goes in a cold oven to start, and

2. Ingredients are room temperature to start, and

3. It’s put on a hot pad/towel/burner mitt when it comes out

I’ve followed this doctrine about five times over a few decades and had no mishaps. Others have different stories. The clay that is purpose built for thermal shock resistance is called flameware. Laguna makes one. Robbie Lobel is the guru queen of flameware. Flameware is formulated to survive the stovetop, if you want reassurance in the oven you’ll find it in that type of body. These clays are typically cone 10 clays, but Laguna bills theirs as cone 5-10. There may be glaze fit issues. Porosity may be an issue as well.

People have been baking in regular stoneware long before flameware was a thing though. The conventional wisdom I recall is no sharp edges or corners, small or no trimmed foot, thrown thicker than normal, using groggy clay. Always goes in a cold oven. 

Earthenware can be used for baking with little worry about thermal shock, and it has been used more widely and for longer than stoneware for cooking. But it brings another host of problems mostly related to absorption/porosity. For bread baking those issues are less severe than if you’re cooking a sloppy wet casserole.

I suggest you continue gathering information, but also act right now: make some pots with clay you’re familiar with and try them in the oven. It will take a few weeks, but starting now you’ll wind up with experience you can use to evaluate what you’re learning and still have time to get something done before holiday season arrives. 

[PeterH]

@Kelly in AK +1

Maybe even start experimenting with a DIY pizza stone.

PS If you use baking paper it makes it easier to move the risen bread mix onto the baking surface and reduces any potential problems with surface porosity/sticking. Probably reduces the thermal shock just a little as well.

Edited September 9 by PeterH

[C.Banks]

15 hours ago, TonyC said:

The mullite "enhances thermal capabilities," which means that it will better withstand the repetitive heating/cooling that bakeware is exposed to". 

From a quick search too cristobalite will form at high temperatures.

There was a project a few years ago that needed grog and mullite was convenient but not ideal, at least for temperatures over 1100c.

At the time I had no idea how involved grog is. This reference to mullite gets me wondering again.

 

[Hulk]

Baking paper, aka parchment paper? Yep, great stuff.

btw, duplicate under Forum FAQ deleted, thanks Kelly