electrical trouble shooting Paragon A88B, serial no. L79064

[Lbs]

Just acquired an old paragon kiln. Elements look good, brick looks pretty good. Plugged it in, with cone in sitter and set to low. Pushed button, no response. Set to medium, same. Set both knobs to high and could hear the telltale hum, but the "on" button wouldn't stay engaged, and some arcing of electricity could be seen in the vents of the electrical box. I held the on button in and ran hand over elements and I think they all were heating (hard to tell since I didn't wait for glow to appear). 

Any ideas about where the problem might lie, or what other things I should do to gather more information for a diagnosis? 

Thanks in advance for your help, 

LBS

Edited October 31, 2023 by Lbs
add photos

[JTMD]

Following... I've got a Cress kiln doing the same thing.

[neilestrick]

Does the Kiln Sitter have a timer? If so, make sure it's turned up, as the power button will not stay engaged if the timer is at zero.

[Lbs]

Thanks,  but no timer on this one.
Any thoughts about why low and medium aren't working ?

Edited October 31, 2023 by Lbs

[Denice]

I had something like that happen on a old Paragon,  it was so old the sitter had metal parts.   My repairman said they didn't make parts for that old of sitter,  but I was lucky that it didn't have any plastic parts.  He took it apart and cleaned with fine steel wool two contact points and put it back together and the stainless steel button stayed push in.   It has been a least ten years since I had it repaired and it has been retired for 5  years.  There is probably a manual that can tell you which parts need cleaning.  My repairman did tell me if I had plastic parts in it they would need to replaced and can be hard to find.    Denice

[PeterH]

39 minutes ago, Lbs said:

Thanks,  but no timer on this one.
Any thoughts about why low and medium aren't working ?

Are you sure that you are supplying the correct power to the kiln?

PS

It looks to me like the way the switches are wired means that you may be able to apply full power without the neutral wire, but low and medium definitely require the neutral wire.

 

 

 

 

[Dick White]

What Peter just said. Show us pictures of 1) the electrical rating plate on the side of the kiln, and 2) the plug and receptacle you have the kiln plugged into.

[neilestrick]

If the Sitter power button won't stay engaged, spray a little WD-40 to the backside of the Sitter plate- there's a small wire spring and another part that move to catch the button- then push the button in and out a bunch of times and see if it'll catch. Sometimes the mechanism gets corroded/gummed up.

You may not hear buzzing on low like you do on high. Totally depends on the kiln. Some kilns don't hardly buzz at all, some buzz really loud.

[Lbs]

I really appreciate all the information others are offering! 

Here are photos of the electrical specs, etc. for the "new" (old) Paragon kiln. The second photo is of a receptacle on the kiln itself, for adding addition rings (?) The last photo is the electric plate info from the Duncan kiln my studio is wired for and which works just fine. The plugs on both kilns are the same and fit the receptacle pictured. 

If you can't see the information on the Paragon plate, here it is: Volts: 120/240/3W; Amps 25.9, Watts: 6226; Phase: 1

Duncan (the one I have been using for years): Volts 240; Amps 24; Watts: 5760; AC Single Phase.

To answer Peter's question, I don't know if I have my studio wired correctly for this kiln. I assumed since it fit the receptacle I had, all was good, but perhaps not! 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Lbs

[neilestrick]

Since the serial plate on the main kiln body of the Paragon reads 120/240 volts, it needs to be wired up as a 4 wire system- 2 hots, neutral, ground. Your Duncan is a 3 wire system- 2 hots, ground. The Duncan sends 240 volts through the elements, so both hots are connected to all the elements and complete the circuit that way. The Paragon takes the 2 hots and separates them, running 120 volts to the top half of the kiln and 120 volts to the bottom half. The neutral is required to complete the 120 volt circuit.

At some point a 3 wire power cord was connected to the Paragon. If they rewired the kiln to work as a 3 wire system that's fine, but if it's got the original wiring setup then it won't work properly.

None of this has anything to do with the power button on the Sitter not staying engaged. That is a separate issue that needs to be dealt with.

Unfortunately the wiring situation is going to be difficult to diagnose over the internet. Do you have any experience with wiring? Because the place to start (after getting the power button to catch) will be to figure out what's going on inside the control box and see if the 3 wire power cord will work. We can try to do it with photos, otherwise you'll want to call in a kiln tech to take a look at it.

[PeterH]

If it is necessary to convert the kiln to a normal 240V power supply.

Am I right in thinking that it would be difficult to do this while retaining the 4-way switches. (This makes me really doubt that the kiln has already been modified for 240V operation.)

While replacing each 4-way switch with an infinite switch looks pretty straightforward, and gives you a little more temperature control.

I have a feeling that @Bill Kielb expanded on this idea in another thread, but I couldn't find it.

Edited November 1, 2023 by PeterH

[PeterH]

A manual for a popular kiln-sitter, to give you a flavour of maintenance issues.
http://www.fireright.com/docs/kilnsitter/lt3andk.pdf

[neilestrick]

Yes, you can wire the elements in series and run them on 240 volts (no neutral). I did that recently to one of these kilns. I don't think the existing switches would work, though, unless they have a way to wire them without the neutral. I would just swap them out for infinite switches, which are cheap and provide better control.

[Lbs]

14 hours ago, neilestrick said:

Since the serial plate on the main kiln body of the Paragon reads 120/240 volts, it needs to be wired up as a 4 wire system- 2 hots, neutral, ground. Your Duncan is a 3 wire system- 2 hots, ground. The Duncan sends 240 volts through the elements, so both hots are connected to all the elements and complete the circuit that way. The Paragon takes the 2 hots and separates them, running 120 volts to the top half of the kiln and 120 volts to the bottom half. The neutral is required to complete the 120 volt circuit.

At some point a 3 wire power cord was connected to the Paragon. If they rewired the kiln to work as a 3 wire system that's fine, but if it's got the original wiring setup then it won't work properly.

None of this has anything to do with the power button on the Sitter not staying engaged. That is a separate issue that needs to be dealt with.

Unfortunately the wiring situation is going to be difficult to diagnose over the internet. Do you have any experience with wiring? Because the place to start (after getting the power button to catch) will be to figure out what's going on inside the control box and see if the 3 wire power cord will work. We can try to do it with photos, otherwise you'll want to call in a kiln tech to take a look at it.

It does look like the plug could be a replacement . The person I got it from never fired it (they never wired the house for it) and didn't know the history, so what you said makes sense. 
 

my electrical skills are limited to replacing outlets and installing ceiling fans. I'll see f I can find a kiln tech, if not, you can look forward to photos in your future!

[Lbs]

On 10/31/2023 at 2:48 PM, neilestrick said:

If the Sitter power button won't stay engaged, spray a little WD-40 to the backside of the Sitter plate- there's a small wire spring and another part that move to catch the button- then push the button in and out a bunch of times and see if it'll catch. Sometimes the mechanism gets corroded/gummed up.

You may not hear buzzing on low like you do on high. Totally depends on the kiln. Some kilns don't hardly buzz at all, some buzz really loud.

This worked! The button will now stay engaged. Thank you!

On 11/1/2023 at 11:20 AM, Lbs said:

It does look like the plug could be a replacement . The person I got it from never fired it (they never wired the house for it) and didn't know the history, so what you said makes sense. 
 

my electrical skills are limited to replacing outlets and installing ceiling fans. I'll see f I can find a kiln tech, if not, you can look forward to photos in your future!

No luck so far finding a kiln tech. If you are still willing/able to help, what photos do you need to try to talk me through wiring this so it works with three instead of four-wire power cord, as well as switching to infinite switches? 

[neilestrick]

12 hours ago, Lbs said:

If you are still willing/able to help, what photos do you need to try to talk me through wiring this so it works with three instead of four-wire power cord, as well as switching to infinite switches? 

The first thing we need to do is measure the resistance of the elements so we can math out the amperage and verify that wiring in series is the way to go. If you don't have a multi-meter, pickup a cheap one. It just needs to be able to measure Ohms, which is the little horseshoe symbol on the meter. A basic $15 meter will work fine.

[Lbs]

22 hours ago, neilestrick said:

The first thing we need to do is measure the resistance of the elements so we can math out the amperage and verify that wiring in series is the way to go. If you don't have a multi-meter, pickup a cheap one. It just needs to be able to measure Ohms, which is the little horseshoe symbol on the meter. A basic $15 meter will work fine.

I have one! Do I need to measure each element's resistance? Or just one? I have googled measuring resistance of elements, so think I know what to do next. I will get to this this afternoon and report back. Thank you!!!

 

[neilestrick]

Measure each element and let us know what you find.

[Lbs]

6 hours ago, Lbs said:

I have one! Do I need to measure each element's resistance? Or just one? I have googled measuring resistance of elements, so think I know what to do next. I will get to this this afternoon and report back. Thank you!!!

 

Not sure I've done this right. I pulled switch box off and connected each lead to the start and finish of an element where it connects inside box. Struggled with how to set my ohmmeter, so tried about every setting related to the Omega sign on my meter. I've posted photos of the settings that got a response, plus some additional photos I hope mean something to you. As you can see, the needle bounced off the chart. I removed a wire to an element that was connected to a screw that shared with another element's wire, after reading about elements wired in parallel. Managed to break the element where it connects to the switch wire (not sure that's what its called) in the process of trying to disconnect it @#$&!! I see the dollar signs stacking up! Removing second element's wire didn't make a difference in meter reading. 

[Bill Kielb]

@Lbs With that meter you need to set the ohms on X1k connect the black and red meter leads to each other (hold them firmly connected) and using the zero adjust on the left side to zero the meter as precisely as you can. Top green scale, zero is to the right. This will now indicate that the shorted conductors are zero ohms and the meter is now calibrated. Uncross the leads and begin measuring the elements. Please make sure the kiln is unplugged (no power) before making any resistance measurements.

edit: the readings should be in the single / double digit range: ie say 1-30 ohms. If not change to the X10, re-zero as above and make your reading. It’s been many years since I used an analogue meter with an exponential scale so not sure if that is a multiplier or full scale indicator. Regardless calibrating to zero is the important part and translating the reading to something in the 1 to tens of ohms range will be the answer. The elements will not be 100 s of ohms. Calibrate to zero each time you change scale is the important part. Record your results, scale multiplier and post.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Bill Kielb

[Lbs]

21 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

@Lbs With that meter you need to set the ohms on X1k connect the black and red meter leads to each other (hold them firmly connected) and using the zero adjust on the left side to zero the meter as precisely as you can. Top green scale, zero is to the right. This will now indicate that the shorted conductors are zero ohms and the meter is now calibrated. Uncross the leads and begin measuring the elements. Please make sure the kiln is unplugged (no power) before making any resistance measurements.

edit: the readings should be in the single / double digit range: ie say 1-30 ohms. If not change to the X10, re-zero as above and make your reading. It’s been many years since I used an analogue meter with an exponential scale so not sure if that is a multiplier or full scale indicator. Regardless calibrating to zero is the important part and translating the reading to something in the 1 to tens of ohms range will be the answer. The elements will not be 100 s of ohms. Calibrate to zero each time you change scale is the important part. Record your results, scale multiplier and post.

I set meter to X1k, calibrated to 0, and the needle swung back all the way to measure 0 resistance. I set it to X10, calibrated and got the same results. 

[neilestrick]

I'd buy a cheap digital meter. They're easier to use and get precise readings .

[Bill Kielb]

1 assume it went back to zero when you measured the element. If that is the case this meter simply cannot measure the small resistance of an element. Time for a cheap digital meter.

[PeterH]

If you are buying a meter is it worth getting one with a clamp ammeter? They look quite cheap and presumably can be used to measure in-situ per-element current. 

[Bill Kielb]

34 minutes ago, PeterH said:

If you are buying a meter is it worth getting one with a clamp ammeter? They look quite cheap and presumably can be used to measure in-situ per-element current. 

I like your thinking but in-situ sounds much more acceptable than live circuit measurement. To have a meter that does both is helpful but for folks without experience in work on live circuits it has increased risk.