cusher Posted May 24, 2022 Report Share Posted May 24, 2022 Hi Seeking help before I tear everything apart. Older SnF Set and Fire Bisquing is going fine, to approx cone 05/06/ Unable to get it to reach or bend a cone 6 at max temp on a 7/9 hr firing. This is the specs for this model I have the smallest one with the kiln sitter. Should I just fire longer or replace elements? S and SnF (Set-n-Fire) Series Ceramic Kilns Kiln style: Top-loading Chamber size: 2.95 - 7.92 cubic feet Firing range: Cone 8-10 (check individual product pages for Voltage: 208V or 240V Controller: manual kiln-sitter Suggested use: Paragon’s S-series and SnF-series can be purchased in a wide variety of sizes, so it’s easy to find a kiln that fits your studio or classroom needs. These kilns are built with the standard Paragon ceramic-capable firing chamber, with efficient Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cusher Posted May 24, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2022 any help greatly appreciated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denice Posted May 24, 2022 Report Share Posted May 24, 2022 It seems to me that your firing time is appropriate for the cone you are firing to. I have been firing manual kilns for 50 years and replace my elements when my glaze firing time is around twelve hours. Some potters have a firing schedule of twelve hours and consider a 7/9 too fast. I usually end up between 9/10 hours, it depends on loaded the kiln is and also how much soaking, hold and down firing I do. Denice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cusher Posted May 24, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2022 I wonder if I might just try 12 hours before replacing the elements themselves, seems like quite a job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 If you have a pyrometer then measuring the rate during the end of firing can give you a heads up along with the ever growing firing time. So, 60 degrees per hour is probably the slowest you want to go which happens to be 1 degree every minute. So as the time grows and the final rate slows it will be obvious it is time for new elements. Elements don’t improve, they just wear and ……. They wear together. Replace them all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldlady Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 cusher, it sounds as though you are firing by time only. are you using cones to discover what heat work has occurred? you have listed your bisque cone numbers in what appears to me reverse order. you do know that cone 05 is hotter than cone 06, right? and i could not find the end of your last sentence in the first post. i had the Touch N' Fire from paragon so maybe yours is entirely different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callie Beller Diesel Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 You don’t specify your chamber size, and that can make a difference. If your 3 cu ft kiln isn’t reaching cone 6 in 12 hours, that would indicate more element wear than it would in a larger, tightly packed kiln. My manual 7 cu ft kiln takes a good 10 hours to hit top glaze temps, and that’s not unreasonable. edited to add: you can also get your kiln specs from the manufacturer, and find out from there what the resistance level is supposed to be on new elements. If you have a meter, you can check how far off the elements are from the original and see what the wear is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterH Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 You can find your kilns part number from the info on https://paragonweb.com/support/kiln-wiring-diagrams/ If you then enter the p/n into the pages search field it will give you its kiln wiring diagram. This should show you the "as new" resistances of your elements. PS If you post your p/n it will help the experts customise their answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cusher Posted May 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2022 Thank you all for the information I guess my question is is is it always the elements that need replacing? This is an older kiln but has been barely used We’ll specify more details when I get homeWe’ll specify more details when I get home ok here are the details it is an SNF 82max temp 2300 i suspect that the top switch is not working, and that’s why I’m only getting half power. I do not hear the top switch clicking at all , it also doesn’t heat after several hours, following all correct protocol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cusher Posted May 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2022 So I’ve had several successful bisque fires to calm 06 and have been happy with the performance of the Kim. Trying my first glaze fires nothing seem to work correctly and I’m not reaching temperature. I’m starting to suspect that between the two element areas of the kiln one is maybe just not working and so I’m only getting half temperature at max. The switch labeled number one should be making some noise and heating up, and it has not after three hours, the switch number two does make a clicking sound and does heat up as soon as I turn it on yes I understand it’s a reversed timer and not the other way around for number two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cusher Posted May 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2022 Sorry for late replies was busy at work… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 27, 2022 Report Share Posted May 27, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, cusher said: i suspect that the top switch is not working, and that’s why I’m only getting half power. Easy enough to check. Test fire and see if they glow or not. Try just test firing with the top switch. Try just test firing with the bottom timer. Your diagram here if you do not have it already https://paragonweb.com/wp-content/uploads/wsnf82.pdf Logical steps, I think you can have the answer to that question in fairly short order, else a little meter work can confirm as well. Notice, the elements are staggered in their wiring so every other element is on the top switch and every element in between is on the timer. Check the schematic for clear labeling of sw #1 and sw #2 with respect to the elements. Each element group is 16 ohms (series wired) so if you measure the group and it’s 10% or greater than new or 16+1.6=17.6 ohms, it’s time to replace them all. They wear together, replace them all is typical good practice. Edited May 27, 2022 by Bill Kielb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cusher Posted May 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2022 Thanks bill, the top set is not heating glowing at all. However is that then a faulty switch or all elements need to be replaced. it just did a successful bisque a few days ago So I am surprised the top set is not working now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cusher Posted May 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2022 Bill I mildly dyslexic and this parallel wiring is very confusing not sure where you’re seeing the figure for 16 ohms so far each element seems to test at .5 ohms higher than what it says on the sheet which makes me think maybe it’s not necessarily an element issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 27, 2022 Report Share Posted May 27, 2022 4 minutes ago, cusher said: Thanks bill, the top set is not heating glowing at all. However is that then a faulty switch or all elements need to be replaced. There is no top set actually, so look at the drawing below. Turn the timer on (and sitter) wait for it to warm and the top element will glow, then skip one, and the third element will glow, skip one, the fifth element will glow and so on, with SW #2. Same for SW #1, every other element starting with the second from the top. If any element is broken in the string, then like old Christmas lights that string of elements will not work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 27, 2022 Report Share Posted May 27, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, cusher said: Bill I mildly dyslexic and this parallel wiring is very confusing not sure where you’re seeing the figure for 16 ohms so far each element seems to test at .5 ohms higher than what it The elements are in series so starting at the very top (SW2) element #1=5 ohms, element #3 =3 ohms, element #5 = 3 ohms, element #7 = 5 ohms. 5+3+3+5 = 16 ohms for the element Group on SW2 Interesting notę, for the timer switch to work, the top knob has to be turned on. If it’s off, the timer should not function, it is connected to the pilot output of the top switch. Edited May 27, 2022 by Bill Kielb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cusher Posted May 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2022 OK Bill here’s aUpdate. all elements except for the second one from the top are testing perfectly. The second one from the top is not reading at all any movement so I’m guessing it’s burned out. And needs replacement, however why would none of the other elements from switch one activate anyways? Do I need to replace the switch also yes I understand that the timer switch only turns on when the top switch is on also Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cusher Posted May 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2022 They make it hard to share photos! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cusher Posted May 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2022 So in conclusion I definitely need to replace one element set but the question is do I also need to replace a switch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 27, 2022 Report Share Posted May 27, 2022 (edited) 27 minutes ago, cusher said: ll elements except for the second one from the top are testing perfectly. The second one from the top is not reading at all any movement so I’m guessing it’s burned out. And needs replacement, If you are measuring resistance and element 2 is open (infinite resistance) then none of the elements on SW1 will work and the switch won’t cycle because of that Christmas light series thing and it has no load on it. If You look carefully along the length of element 2 you should be able to confirm and see a burned spot, opening or gap. The switch is probably fine, but you will need a good set of elements to test it. Replace them all would be good practice, @cusher since they are all 0.5 ohms higher they are at least 10% worn for the five ohm elements and more like 18% for the three ohm. Replace them all. Edited May 27, 2022 by Bill Kielb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cusher Posted May 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2022 Ok thanks … just strange was working fine recently just some days ago… would get very hot very fast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cusher Posted May 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2022 What if I don’t see anything on the element how can I confirm that it’s still really burnt out and no good? I’m surprised at the price they are not cheap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 27, 2022 Report Share Posted May 27, 2022 1 minute ago, cusher said: Ok thanks … just strange was working fine recently just some days ago… would get very hot very fast Most everything works until it breaks. Visually Find the break in element 2 to be sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callie Beller Diesel Posted May 27, 2022 Report Share Posted May 27, 2022 51 minutes ago, cusher said: I’m surprised at the price they are not cheap That kiln is likely 20-30 years old, if it lacks any electronic components. I don’t know how many firings you put on it, or the person who owned it before you did, but I’ve got over 200 firings on my elements and they’re still going strong. Kiln bricks, unless they get scratched up or physically damaged. For the price of a new set of elements and maybe a switch, you get essentially a brand new kiln. Granted, an analog model, but they do last. It’s good value for the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 27, 2022 Report Share Posted May 27, 2022 2 hours ago, cusher said: What if I don’t see anything on the element how can I confirm that it’s still really burnt out and no good? I’m surprised at the price they are not cheap Double check your measurements, there is a break somewhere so you should spot it. If not be sure of your measuring and realize as elements get older and more brittle they also burn open because they are thinner so ………double check your measurement to be sure then replace them all so no more burn open suddenly. They are all thin and ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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