neilestrick Posted May 24, 2021 Report Share Posted May 24, 2021 @thiamant Can you draw us a picture and post it here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thiamant Posted May 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 Sure. Window 2 leads to the outside with good air flow. @neilestrick @Bill Kielb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 25, 2021 Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 4 hours ago, thiamant said: Sure. Window 2 leads to the outside with good air flow. @neilestrick @Bill Kielb Yeah, not sure I understand at all. The kiln vent needs to terminate UP so that doesn’t appear like it will work. Can you rough sketch in a plan view the kiln room, adjacent rooms, outside walls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thiamant Posted May 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 15 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said: Yeah, not sure I understand at all. The kiln vent needs to terminate UP so that doesn’t appear like it will work. Do you mean the last segment that goes outside? Unfortunately I cannot make it go up from there. I thought it would be enough as water heater works exactly the same way for gas exhaust. When im back home I will do the sketch again.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thiamant Posted May 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 @Bill Kielb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 25, 2021 Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 @thiamant quick question then I’ll sketch a decent suggestion - can the vent go out the wall at the top of the picture to the outdoors or do you need to use the windows to pass through because you do not want to cut through the wall? And..... maybe a quick picture of the window. (Double hung, slider?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thiamant Posted May 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 @Bill Kielb the vent can indeed go out through the wall that goes outside. (But has to go through the window on window1) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 25, 2021 Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 1 minute ago, thiamant said: @Bill Kielb the vent can indeed go out through the wall that goes outside. (But has to go through the window on window1) Got it, go through the window solution as possible. One Las t ask, I promise. Can we get a quick picture of the window?. Are they double hung? Sliders? ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thiamant Posted May 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 1 minute ago, Bill Kielb said: Got it, go through the window solution as possible. One Las t ask, I promise. Can we get a quick picture of the window?. Are they double hung? Sliders? ..... They are simple sliding windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 25, 2021 Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, thiamant said: They are simple sliding windows. Horizontal or vertical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thiamant Posted May 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 Horizontal, crystal and aluminum frame. But these windows cannot be altered... May I know what you were thinking? @Bill Kielb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted May 25, 2021 Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 You should be able to make a board that fits into the window opening, with the vent duct going through it. I do a lot of that for customers. Depending on the design of the window, you can add weatherstripping to it to get a tight seal so there's no back-blow through the gaps and to keep weather out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 25, 2021 Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 2 hours ago, thiamant said: Horizontal, crystal and aluminum frame. But these windows cannot be altered... May I know what you were thinking? @Bill Kielb Sorry, working right now and just checked this. My thought is for the vent turn the vent down the hall and exit on the back wall. Caution about using the right pipe for zero clearance / heat. Check your kiln specs for wattage and find a nice economical through wall vent for the kiln room. Pipe that out the back wall and terminated with a simple dryer vent. If my sense is right, you will be able to remove a good portion of the heat with a decent 4” fan and both windows shown can be pretty safely used as well as any other window in the rest of the house if needed without worry. This solution can run out to the right in your picture as well, with an extension of the fan up in your drawing away from the window. Need to hop back into another scheduled meeting thought so it will be later today but that’s my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted May 25, 2021 Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 4 hours ago, thiamant said: Do you mean the last segment that goes outside? Unfortunately I cannot make it go up from there. I thought it would be enough as water heater works exactly the same way for gas exhaust. Going up is what really gets the draw working. Wall vent water heaters have powered vents. My concern is that if you don't get some verticality to the run it's not going to be very effective. The more vertical, the better the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted May 25, 2021 Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 Because this kiln is so small, a good fan in the window blowing out with fresh air coming in from another source, might do the job without messing with the spy hole duct system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted May 25, 2021 Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 Makeup air -its always a good thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thiamant Posted May 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Bill Kielb said: Sorry, working right now and just checked this. My thought is for the vent turn the vent down the hall and exit on the back wall. Sorry I dont fully understand. Could you draw a simple sketch maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 25, 2021 Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 44 minutes ago, thiamant said: Sorry I dont fully understand. Could you draw a simple sketch maybe? Yes, I will draw a couple suggestions, it just needs to be much later today. I have about 5 more hours of work today, then I can start it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thiamant Posted May 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 37 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said: Yes, I will draw a couple suggestions, it just needs to be much later today. I have about 5 more hours of work today, then I can start it. Oh sure no rush. No worries. I cant thank enough all the help you all are giving to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thiamant Posted May 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 4 hours ago, neilestrick said: Going up is what really gets the draw working. Wall vent water heaters have powered vents. My concern is that if you don't get some verticality to the run it's not going to be very effective. The more vertical, the better the draft. At least here in Spain we have what we call "forced airdraft" and "natural airdraft". Mine for example doesnt have any fan just a tube in a 20 degree angle. (Almost horizontal) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 26, 2021 Report Share Posted May 26, 2021 10 hours ago, thiamant said: Oh sure no rush. No worries. I cant thank enough all the help you all are giving to me. Here is a concept Ok here is an idea from which you can build upon, but in all cases done this way you can open a window elsewhere and get nice fresh air from anywhere in the house. Your kiln is 2.9 kw so a rough approximation we would ever likely exhaust is 2,175 kw per hour at the very top of firing for a few hours. On an 80 (26c) degree outdoor air temp day, maintaining a 95 (35c) degree kiln room temp this would translate to about 134 CFM exhaust fan. So it’s not always going to be 80F (26c) outdoor temp and 95F (35c) indoors isn’t the best but if cooler temps outside means the room cools to a more comfortable indoor temperature ......... we really only produce maximum heat at top of firing, I think a 100 - 200 CFM wall fan is probably more than reasonable approximation, 300 cfm likely insures nearly all the heat is removed under most conditions within a relatively short time. My thought would be 100 -150 CFM in-line (Axial - fairly quiet) exhaust using 4” pvc piping (If allowed by code) or for more CFM you likely need to move to a six inch fan and equal piping. (Or the metric equal - sorry metric size are not intuitive to me and straight conversion likely sounds silly) These fans can be purchased for reasonable dollars and they do come with speed controls available. As far as makeup air, always nice to have it so to add perspective of whether 100 -150 cfm will or will not leak into the home, consider most clothes dryers run about 200 - 225 cfm, most folks don’t even notice this amount leaks in quite easily. Still having an adequate supply of makeup air is always best so opening a window a few inches likely solves this easily. Opening the kiln room window full and the one across the hall a few inches might be a cold weather solution so the rest of the house stays heated should you have a need. Anyway, an idea which gets the fumes reasonably away from the various sources of fresh air and out of your kiln room along with much of the heat it produces. Finally, the less horizontal pipe or near horizontal the better, and the total gross rise you can get from the top of the kiln is most important to the strength of the draft of the Nabertherm kiln vent. Additionally keeping this pipe warm aids in the draft and velocity which helps minimize condensation. Here we use something called Bvent which is double wall air gap for minimal 1-2” clearance on gas appliance exhaust in the 400 - 500 (200-260c) degree range. Nabertherm likely designed the ratio of kiln air to room air so this pipe cannot get super hot even with a two thousand degree kiln so use their suggested piping for that part for sure and proper hardware for penetrations through combustible walls as they specify. Finally door undercuts,: A 1-2” undercut flows 50 - 100 cfm with fairly low pressure drop, of couse you could always leave the door to the studio open with the exhaust fan on or install an operable transfer grill in the door for firing days. Finally local codes are what they are so those always take precedence when you set up your system. Some localities for instance don’t allow door undercuts for fire protection and isolation reasons. None of this is to scale so this could have serious assumption issues. @thiamant added some typical fans, fittings etc... that May give you ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thiamant Posted May 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2021 @Bill Kielb I forgot to say that the top wall doesnt go outside, but to my neighbour's wall, so I don't think he will agree on that Can I just go through the room and send the pipe to the wall on the top-right? Also, the pipe has to go through the first window, can't make a hole there.. I know there's a lot of restrictions here... so anything I do will be suboptimal, I'm aware of that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 26, 2021 Report Share Posted May 26, 2021 4 hours ago, thiamant said: know there's a lot of restrictions here... so anything I do will be suboptimal, I'm aware of that No worries, got your stuff will finish offline. I see what you need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thiamant Posted May 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2021 BTW, is there a way to take some measurements of the air to check the effectiveness of the vent system? I've seen some SO2 measurement devices but they are quite expensive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted May 26, 2021 Report Share Posted May 26, 2021 29 minutes ago, thiamant said: BTW, is there a way to take some measurements of the air to check the effectiveness of the vent system? I've seen some SO2 measurement devices but they are quite expensive... The general rule of thumb is if you can't smell it then it's working. Beyond that you get into expensive testing equipment. Your kiln is small, so I really do think that both systems might be overkill. Since the powered vent wall fan is so close to the kiln, I think it would be worth installing it first and seeing if the Nabertherm system is even needed. A good wall fan can do the job just fine. About half of the schools I work in only have wall fans or an overhead hood system, no other vent system connected to the kiln. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.