nancylee Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 Hi all, My Skutt kiln, a KM1022-3 model, isn't getting to temperature so I did the test where I put it on, set it for Cone 6 at fast speed and looked at it 30 minutes later. The middle elements don't light up at all. The top and bottom do. My husband also did an amp test as described in the booklet. The amperage test showed 17 for the top, 0 and 0 for the middle elements and the bottom. We are going to try replacing the relay/s first, as that worked last time, but if that doesn't work, we are going to have to replace the elements ourselves. Gulp!! Some questions: where would I buy Skutt elements, and are there top and bottom ones? What is an element crimper?? And what am I missing?? Thank you in advance for any help, Best, Nancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 You can buy them from Skutt or Euclids has made most elements forever as well as many clay supply houses on the web carry Skutt elements. They need to be ordered by model number, voltage, etc.... for sure as top middle and bottom can be the same or differ as well so getting a set for your kiln is a thing. As far as crimps, skutt has used crimped connections to fasten the wire to the element tail. You can purchase wire crimpers from almost anywhere, crimping extremely tight is a thing and will make the connection last longer. There are screw type element connectors as well that many prefer as good crimping takes some practice and strength and is not removable once done so future repairs are limited to having enough wire remaining. Oh last thought, IMO replace all of them if one is worn, they all are worn and for your first firing, make it an empty kiln protective firing: https://skutt.com/images/Top-5-ways-to-Extend-the-Life-of-your-Kiln-Elements.pdf All said elements are fairly easy, crimps are ok go slow, watch a video first : https://youtu.be/BohGz_2KoKM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancylee Posted February 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 Thank you, Bill, for all that great information. My husband is the handy one, so I'm sharing all this with him, but I want to learn how to do it, too. Best, Nancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancylee Posted February 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Bill Kielb said: You can buy them from Skutt or Euclids has made most elements forever as well as many clay supply houses on the web carry Skutt elements. They need to be ordered by model number, voltage, etc.... for sure as top middle and bottom can be the same or differ as well so getting a set for your kiln is a thing. As far as crimps, skutt has used crimped connections to fasten the wire to the element tail. You can purchase wire crimpers from almost anywhere, crimping extremely tight is a thing and will make the connection last longer. There are screw type element connectors as well that many prefer as good crimping takes some practice and strength and is not removable once done so future repairs are limited to having enough wire remaining. Oh last thought, IMO replace all of them if one is worn, they all are worn and for your first firing, make it an empty kiln protective firing: https://skutt.com/images/Top-5-ways-to-Extend-the-Life-of-your-Kiln-Elements.pdf All said elements are fairly easy, crimps are ok go slow, watch a video first : https://youtu.be/BohGz_2KoKM Thank you. I'm looking at the sites, and do I need 3 elements for each part? Does that make sense?? It's like 7 elements for $350? I hope I'm reading this wrong!! Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 3 hours ago, nancylee said: The middle elements don't light up at all. Usually when both/all elements in a section are out, it's because of a dead relay. It could also be because of a fried wiring connection, but you'll be able to see that when you open the box. If one relay has died due to age, then you should replace them all since they all switch on and off at the same time. If you plan to do your elements yourself, it's good to have a wire cutter-crimper, something like THIS, as well as a mini bolt cutter for trimming element pigtails, something like THIS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 3 minutes ago, nancylee said: Thank you. I'm looking at the sites, and do I need 3 elements for each part? Does that make sense?? It's like 7 elements for $350? I hope I'm reading this wrong!! Thanks! A 1022 needs 5 elements. 2 top/bottom, 3 center. Make sure you're getting the correct voltage/phase, and the correct brick thickness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 For KM1022-3 240V 1P you'll need two #3262 and three #3263. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancylee Posted February 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 17 minutes ago, neilestrick said: For KM1022-3 240V 1P you'll need two #3262 and three #3263. Thank you, Neil. I appreciate your generous help. Nancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 hour ago, neilestrick said: For KM1022-3 240V 1P you'll need two #3262 and three #3263 Looking at her diagram, top and bottom are parallel, middle is separate. Can you easily double check what she needs single phase? https://skutt.com/images/13.20-22inch-Series-Wiring-Diagrams.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Bill Kielb said: Looking at her diagram, top and bottom are parallel, middle is separate. Can you easily double check what she needs single phase? https://skutt.com/images/13.20-22inch-Series-Wiring-Diagrams.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 2 hours ago, neilestrick said: So not to be a pest just asking, does she need 4 - #3262 (1/3 + 1/3) and (3) #3263 (1/3). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 17 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said: So not to be a pest just asking, does she need 4 - #3262 (1/3 + 1/3) and (3) #3263 (1/3). Two Top/Bottom- one for the top one for the bottom, three Center. The KM1022 is a 22.5" tall kiln, basically two 9" sections and one half section. 1 element per 4.5" like normal, so 5 elements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 28 minutes ago, neilestrick said: Two Top/Bottom- one for the top one for the bottom, three Center. The KM1022 is a 22.5" tall kiln, basically two 9" sections and one half section. 1 element per 4.5" like normal, so 5 elements. Not sure, just looking at the wiring diagram and Skutt site, might need two top and two bottom, else their wiring diagram is wrong twice. Probably good to ask first if she orders from Skutt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Min Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 14 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said: Not sure, just looking at the wiring diagram and Skutt site, might need two top and two bottom Don't think so Bill, bottom and top elements X 1 each of the same specs makes 2 plus 3 for the middle makes 5. Same info for how many to purchase of which ones here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Bill Kielb said: Not sure, just looking at the wiring diagram and Skutt site, might need two top and two bottom, else their wiring diagram is wrong twice. Probably good to ask first if she orders from Skutt The wiring diagram shows 5 elements. The very top element and very bottom element are the same resistance. The 3 middle elements are the same resistance. The diagram is correct. Just because two elements are wired in parallel doesn't mean they have to be the same resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 2 hours ago, Min said: Don't think so Bill, bottom and top elements X 1 each of the same specs makes 2 plus 3 for the middle makes 5. Same info for how many to purchase of which ones here. Again, not sure. Everything I read seems to indicate top has two elements in parallel and bottom has two in parallel. The literature Neil posted says two Top / bottom elements = 1/3 of the kiln. Not 2/3 and three centers = 1/3. The Skutt site says 2 required top OR bottom not AND. The drawing shows two elements in parallel for the top and for the bottom. If the center is one set string of three then that is 7 elements total. So I hope I am wrong but calling Skutt, likely a wise idea. As far as the posted site kilnparts.com it looks the same to me, order two elements for the top or the bottom. Definitely worth checking in my opinion. But the Skutt site has pretty definite OR wording. Looking at the ceramic shop it lists them as two for the top, three for the middle, two for the bottom. My guess is seven is correct, call ahead. If I am wrong - happy surprise only need a single element for top or bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Bill Kielb said: The literature Neil posted says two Top / bottom elements = 1/3 of the kiln. 1/3 means single and 3 phase. I order Skutt elements almost weekly. With modern kilns, the top/bottom elements are one for the top and one for the bottom. Always, for 27" and shorter kilns. The center elements make up the rest, whether that's 2, 3, or 4. The only exception are the KM1231PK models, which have 7 elements- 2 T/B, 2 intermediate, and 3 center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick White Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 Looking carefully at the wiring diagram on the Skutt site https://skutt.com/skutt-resources/diagrams/kilnmaster-kilns/standard-km/kmt/ (you have to look on the KMT (touchscreen) page as they don't seem to have a 1022 picture on the KM page), there are 5 total elements in this kiln. As with all the Skutt line, the top and bottom elements are hotter than the middle elements to account for thermal losses through the base and lid. There is only one "top" element and one "bottom" element, and both are the same SKU and are interchangeable with each other. In other words, "or" is the proper word that MarkL should have used on the Ceramic Shop page. The three middle elements are all the same SKU (but different from the top/bottom), and are interchangeable between elements #2, 3, or 4. The interest thing about the wiring is the top and bottom pairs are wired in parallel and each pair is controlled by a relay, while the singular centermost element is controlled by its own relay. This is not to suggest there is anything odd going on, just that 3 relays control the 5 elements as 2 pairs and an ace. dw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 Again, not sure. I’ll call Skutt tomorrow for her and post the answer they give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 13 minutes ago, Dick White said: (you have to look on the KMT (touchscreen) page as they don't seem to have a 1022 picture on the KM page) For anybody who's not familiar, the KM and KMT are identical but for the controller. KMT means Touchscreen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 Just now, Bill Kielb said: Again, not sure. I’ll call Skutt tomorrow for her and post the answer they give. What more do we need to say? There are 5 elements in that kiln- 2 are the Top/Bottom type, 3 are Center type. I replaced a full set of elements in a 22" tall Skutt about 3 weeks ago. 5 elements, 2 T/B, 3 Center. Says so right on the chart in the Qty In Kiln column. This is how it is. No question about it. I've been buying Skutt elements for 20 years, and that's how the chart works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 4 minutes ago, neilestrick said: This is how it is. No question about it. I've been buying Skutt elements for 20 year No worries, I still don’t know because the docs are conflicting but all good I’ll take your word for it. No need to call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Min Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 Hey, since Dick has shown his hand with 2 pair and an ace can we place some bets on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 4 minutes ago, Min said: Hey, since Dick has shown his hand with 2 pair and an ace can we place some bets on this? I guess. The bet would be: I am unsure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 5 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said: No worries, I still don’t know because the docs are conflicting but all good I’ll take your word for it. No need to call. How are they conflicting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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