building kilns Kiln build from scratch

[ATauer]

19 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

Tuning properly can be extremely difficult. Auto tune helps a bunch but good PID loop process folks spend a lifetime becoming good at it.

If it’s several hundred dollars it is a control with faceplate, circuit board, built in relays, built in PID, etc…. If you intend to use SSR or mechanical relays you would use the output of the V6cf to drive them. You will need a box, transformer, fuse holder, cord, wiring, SSR’s heat sinks etc… regardless of which controller, even a Ras pi will require all the support stuff and probably more actually

A stand alone control will still need something to turn on and off which means relays, SSR’s box to hold them etc…. I am just saying, plan this out start to finish and I think you will have a better idea of how it all will work within your design. Right now there seems to be some confusion.

The Bartlett has a PID already tuned for the typical thermodynamics of a kiln and places to store programs. The RAs pi is all your tuning -100% and you need to write the entire program as well. Economical temp controllers have a PID and auto tune, else you are going to have to tune and they still require all the support: box, interconnect wire, relays, etc…..

I think if you define this completely an easiest path will become obvious.

Sorry, I wasn’t clear enough, when I said the tuning didn’t worry me it was because all the PIDs I was looking at had auto-tune and in the descriptions described how often it tunes itself and that the process is automatic.  Otherwise I would be more concerned, but literally every single one had auto-tune, even the $16 ones! They mostly all seemed pretty great, with a lot of good features and most importantly with thermocouple input (K type for me) they measured -50C to 1300C as some other PIDs I was originally looking at, like the Inkbird ones, did not handle the appropriate temperatures. The problems is I’m still searching for one that will save segmented programs, which I hope is out there even if it is a bit more expensive. I’m just starting to figure out where to look for PIDs, I’m only on the one website AliExchange right now. eBay was a nightmare. 

I already have all the parts for a complete PID, including the Raspberry Pi if I were to use that instead of buying one of the temp control PIDs. I have the metal box, the SSR, breadboards, heatsink, transistors, the thermocouple and its computer piece it plugs into etc. I would be all set if I could just find a better kiln controller program, or to use some of this stuff with a PID if I don’t go the RaspberryPi route. 

[ATauer]

12 hours ago, Hulk said:

Big, seems easier with gas.

Energy choice, local electric grid may be clean and low impact, or not.
Burning wood can be dirty- particulates, particularly - even with secondary combustion flame path design, which I don't see kilns having; I can see it being a choice, just not where I live now.
We heated with cordwood for decades, so. Now it's a switch, on the wall, forced air gas furnace.

Copying files should be simple. The Pi uses a Linux variant, so cp command (copy), or mv (move).
Try the copy first.
Command line takes some getting used to. Just try a few commands a day, it won't take long to get the hang of it...

I

The fast fire kiln design I would use uses very little wood, you can literally fire it with scrap wood, and it produces about less than 1% emissions of any kind. The ashes are reusable. Gas is never clean, they may be able to find ways to make it so not very many emissions are produced, but the process of obtaining and processing any of the gases used is extremely harmful environmentally, one of the dirtiest things humans do. I feel absolutely horrible using propane for raku but I have no other choice right now and I try hard to be as efficient and use as little as I can, so I at least don’t make it worse by using a lot. I took extreme care with building/designing my raku kiln to be as efficient and use as few BTUs per hour as possible, and then even added rigidizer and ITC-100 to make it even more efficient. Gas may be easier but it is not easier on my conscience. Fast fire kilns on the other hand can be decently sized, similar to the average gas kiln, about 20-30 cubic ft or so, but use a very small amount of wood which is a renewable resource in France where I would have this and if I’m lucky to get enough land I would grow bamboo to help fire it, which is extremely renewable and removes carbon while growing. 

have experience using the command line, quite a bit of experience, but it has been several years and my computer is dying and I can’t afford to buy a new one right now, I will be getting by on my iPad Pro which is what I use all the time now. But you can’t program RaspberryPi from an iPad to my knowledge, you need the command line etc. If I was recommended a good program I might be able to use my mom’s laptop to do the coding. The coding is not the problem, I know it will come back to me if I watch a few youtube videos. It is having enough information about how to wire together everything and like I said above, even be told how the breadboard connects, there are no directions with any of the components and the RaspberryPi program I was originally going to use from github does not have enough information about building it, the electrical diagram is missing a bunch of key components and is very confusing, which is why I eventually gave up and started looking for a simpler PID I don’t need half the components for and have as simple interface sadly without the wifi and checking the kiln on my phone, but I can’t do any of that stuff with my other two kilns so a simpler PID that just ideally would save some segmented programs would be fine. I’m sure I’ll eventually find one like that, if I can find the right website that sells ones like that. Someone has to make them, these other ones are so damn close to just right. 

[Bill Kielb]

3 hours ago, ATauer said:

I already have all the parts for a complete PID,

Just so there is no misunderstanding a PID loop is a logic function or combination of components that create it. Controllers use PID logic, fuzzy logic or other logic. The ras pi uses some form of logic to emulate the PID loop function. The Bartlett control is a full control that stores multiple programs, can be up to three zones, has a program interface (keyboard and display) , relay outputs, fail safe programming, alarm output, etc… It is a complete control with built in PiD(s) that are already tuned for the typical kiln firing process. Since it is multi-zone, it also contains the equivalent of three PID control loops.

I mention because there seems to be confusion, as PID is a function, not a control and yes most temperature controllers contain PID logic and auto tune. It also seems you have all the necessary peripherals and  parts to build a complete control. so for a couple hundred dollars, the Bartlett just might be suitable and an easy way to get multiple zones with weighted (helping) function vs three independent cheap temperature controllers.

In a pinch, any temperature controller capable of being programmed through a computer interface / keyboard could give you an equivalent way to store multiple schedules and easily load as needed through a computer interface.

Just  mentioning, you might have everything you need whichever way you go. I still suggest you write out the design and anticipated sequence of operation.

[ATauer]

41 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said:

Just so there is no misunderstanding a PID loop is a logic function or combination of components that create it. Controllers use PID logic, fuzzy logic or other logic. The ras pi uses some form of logic to emulate the PID loop function. The Bartlett control is a full control that stores multiple programs, can be up to three zones, has a program interface (keyboard and display) , relay outputs, fail safe programming, alarm output, etc… It is a complete control with built in PiD(s) that are already tuned for the typical kiln firing process. Since it is multi-zone, it also contains the equivalent of three PID control loops.

I mention because there seems to be confusion, as PID is a function, not a control and yes most temperature controllers contain PID logic and auto tune. It also seems you have all the necessary peripherals and  parts to build a complete control. so for a couple hundred dollars, the Bartlett just might be suitable and an easy way to get multiple zones with weighted (helping) function vs three independent cheap temperature controllers.

In a pinch, any temperature controller capable of being programmed through a computer interface / keyboard could give you an equivalent way to store multiple schedules and easily load as needed through a computer interface.

Just  mentioning, you might have everything you need whichever way you go. I still suggest you write out the design and anticipated sequence of operation.

I know just enough about PIDs to know about the loops, but your information was very helpful. I guess the misunderstanding was I was thinking with the Bartlett I would still have to do the programming and didn’t realize it came with so much. Having everything you mentioned-I don’t have three zones currently in my kiln but it is a big enough Skutt that I absolutely could  go that way if I start noticing big differences between sections.  The other things-especially the fail safe programming, which I worry about, although I do use the kiln sitter with a cone several cones higher than what I am firing to to make sure that if my electronic controller doesn’t turn off the kiln the kilnsitter will if the kiln starts heating up and might cause problems on another kiln, the multiple programs, alarms….since I absolutely can’t find any commercial kiln electronic controllers for anything under $800 + shipping $$$,  paying ~$300 plus the ~$100 in parts I already have (not counting some parts I won’t need that I will be able to sell for a decent return)  is a price I’m willing to pay to get rid of this headache and not have to stress about it any longer, and the side benefit of not having to brush up on my coding!

Thank you so much for taking the time to make it really clear what I would be buying and that I should easily be able to put the rest of what it needs together with what I have, and probably have a number of things left over to sell as well. I feel super confident in deciding to go for it, and I feel like 50 lb has been taken off my shoulders-thank you! Now to wait to Monday to make the call to make sure I know exactly what I’m getting at the place I plan to buy it and hopefully purchase it!!!! One of my big needs taken care of, finally! Now let’s see if you can pull a giant electric kiln out of your hat

I feel like the downside is we still haven’t identified the perfect RaspberryPi controller for the readers. I know I desperately wanted for many months of googling to just come upon something that mentioned it!

Edited July 30, 2022 by ATauer

[ATauer]

5 minutes ago, ATauer said:

I know just enough about PIDs to know about the loops, but your information was very helpful. I guess the misunderstanding was I was thinking with the Bartlett I would still have to do the programming and didn’t realize it came with so much. Having everything you mentioned-I don’t have three zones currently in my kiln but it is a big enough Skutt that I absolutely could  go that way if I start noticing big differences between sections.  The other things-especially the fail safe programming, which I worry about, although I do use the kiln sitter with a cone several cones higher than what I am firing to to make sure that if my electronic controller doesn’t turn off the kiln the kilnsitter will if the kiln starts heating up and might cause problems on another kiln, the multiple programs, alarms….since I absolutely can’t find any commercial kiln electronic controllers for anything under $800 + shipping $$$,  paying ~$300 plus the ~$100 in parts I already have (not counting some parts I won’t need that I will be able to sell for a decent return)  is a price I’m willing to pay to get rid of this headache and not have to stress about it any longer, and the side benefit of not having to brush up on my coding!

Thank you so much for taking the time to make it really clear what I would be buying and that I should easily be able to put the rest of what it needs together with what I have, and probably have a number of things left over to sell as well. I feel super confident in deciding to go for it, and I feel like 50 lb has been taken off my shoulders-thank you! Now to wait to Monday to make the call to make sure I know exactly what I’m getting at the place I plan to buy it and hopefully purchase it!!!! One of my big needs taken care of, finally! Now let’s see if you can pull a giant electric kiln out of your hat

I feel like the downside is we still haven’t identified the perfect RaspberryPi controller for the readers. I know I desperately wanted for many months of googling to just come upon something that mentioned it!

I just wanted to add, I found on the Bartlett website a document on what you need and how to put together the complete controller from what you get when you buy it. Down at the bottom for V6-cf besides the manual and firing profiles they have the connections diagram, which is one of the best electrical diagrams I have seen over the last few months, and the technical manual, which includes some things that would help with putting it all together. https://www.bartinst.com/manuals/kiln In November I think I called them trying to find out about if it was a faceplate or a controller, which lead to a lot of my confusion about things, but the customer service was really nice and I think I might have talked to a tech there, an older gentlemen who has been with the company a long time, so I think if I need help I can probably get some help with putting it together from them. Cross fingers they are like Skutt’s techs. 

[PeterH]

You may find this thread by a beta-tester of the (discontinued?)  Bartlett Genesis LT-3140 of interest https://tinyurl.com/jtcjby88

[neilestrick]

The wiring diagram on the Bartlett website is the standard wiring setup used on pretty much every modern digital studio-size kiln used in the USA. The only real difference you'll find in most models the number of thermocouples and number of relays/outputs used.

[MarkTilles]

Back in Sweden I built a nicely running controller from jbruces early GitHub posts,  helped him enhance the code for the better thermocouple board, added many new features and tweaks and it’s been running reliably for three years without a hiccup. I now help my friend in Sweden manage it from the USA via CPN.  I moved last year to LA and tomorrow am picking up a kiln … and plan on building another. I have my last code branch on GitHub as well. 
Mark