Jump to content
cdudley

palladium or mirror-like recipe

Recommended Posts

Hi! I'm a long time lurker, first time poster and new to glaze making but I figure its time to dive in now that I can't find a commercial glaze to do exactly what I want.

I've mixed slips before so am familiar-ish with the processes and am ready to experiment and learn. Does anyone know what chemicals cause the mirrored effect in Palladium? Are there any glaze books where I might find a recipe for it and then could possibly tweak to get the colors I want?

Essentially I want a mirror like sheen, could just be high high gloss, but the look of the Amaco Palladium or elusive Eosin glazes would be lovely- and ideally in 6 colors- red, blue, yellow, black, gold and white. 

Thanks in advance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Edit: it looks like it's a copper and manganese glaze that may use MEA to reduce the outer layer and make it shiny?  I can't really tell from the composition on its MSDS, because they haven't submitted one.  It's interesting that they're required to reveal there's manganese dioxide on the German SDS, but the American one they leave it out.  Either way, looks like some kind of strong reduction effect on manganese and copper.

You could use platinum lustre for an actual mirror finish, but it is expensive since it contains platinum salts.

As far as eosin style glazes, you can use colored lustre overglazes for that.  They are extremely toxic but give that beautiful colored iridescence when applied to any glossy glaze.

Edited by liambesaw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agree with Liam as many metallic like finishes (platinum,  bronze, gold) are achieved with manganese and I believe they are generally not listed as food safe. The luster idea is in my opinion more goof proof as having used the palladium it is dependent on thickness and tends to pinhole. I did get a nice looking trophy out of it years ago though. As I recall it took a lot of effort to get it just right. Family bragging rights trophy that gets inscribed yearly but it still fools folks as to whether it is truly metal until they pick it up.

 

165DC88A-5971-4B65-B4B2-664A1B6DD16C.jpeg

Edited by Bill Kielb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, cdudley said:

Essentially I want a mirror like sheen, could just be high high gloss, but the look of the Amaco Palladium or elusive Eosin glazes would be lovely- and ideally in 6 colors- red, blue, yellow, black, gold and white. 

What cone are you firing to and are you looking for something for functional pots or decorative? A high gloss food safe would be doable in white, black, blue. Probably doable in red and yellow but I'ld suggest testing those if they are for food bearing surfaces because you'll probably need a cadmium stain to achieve them.

Welcome to the forum!

16 hours ago, liambesaw said:

can't really tell from the composition on its MSDS, because they haven't submitted one.

Found a bit of information from this SDS. Looks like they manganese dioxide is somewhere between 1 - 5% which surprises me for such a reflective metallic finish. It's listed on page 7 under the New Jersey "Right to Know" section. Top 5 ingredients in the glaze are Non Lead Frit, Feldspar, Blended Borate Mineral Product, Hydrous Aluminum Silicate, Nepheline Syenite. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Min said:

What cone are you firing to and are you looking for something for functional pots or decorative? A high gloss food safe would be doable in white, black, blue. Probably doable in red and yellow but I'ld suggest testing those if they are for food bearing surfaces because you'll probably need a cadmium stain to achieve them.

Welcome to the forum!

Found a bit of information from this SDS. Looks like they manganese dioxide is somewhere between 1 - 5% which surprises me for such a reflective metallic finish. It's listed on page 7 under the New Jersey "Right to Know" section. Top 5 ingredients in the glaze are Non Lead Frit, Feldspar, Blended Borate Mineral Product, Hydrous Aluminum Silicate, Nepheline Syenite. 

Yeah they are as vague as possible with ingredients for a reason.  They also list MEA as an ingredient and that's not a typical glaze ingredient so I'm guessing there are others theyve left out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, liambesaw said:

Yeah they are as vague as possible with ingredients for a reason.  They also list MEA as an ingredient and that's not a typical glaze ingredient so I'm guessing there are others theyve left out.

I am going to speculate the MEA is used to reduce the surface tension and perhaps get this to perform more as a float glaze during firing which could also be a reason for the predisposition of the pin holing. But just some wild speculation or guess on my part actually. Nice glaze effect but a bit finicky. We need @glazenerd!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Bill Kielb said:

I am going to speculate the MEA is used to reduce the surface tension and perhaps get this to perform more as a float glaze during firing which could also be a reason for the predisposition of the pin holing. But just some wild speculation or guess on my part actually. Nice glaze effect but a bit finicky. We need @glazenerd!

Could be, I only took a tiny read on ethanolamine but it kind of sounded like it was used as a precursor to surfactants and emulsifiers, but was used to scrub carbon dioxide and sulfides. So thought maybe the same properties could be used as a reducing agent.  Hard to say, could just be chock full of silicon carbide which would also explain pinholing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I randomly checked a number of the Amaco brushing glazes and MEA was included in the SDS's for them but it's not showing up in the same glazes in dry dipping form so I'm going to assume it's to help either with suspension or application.

 

Edited by Min

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Min said:

I randomly checked a number of the Amaco brushing glazes and MEA was included in the SDS's for them but it's not showing up in the same glazes in dry dipping form so I'm going to assume it's to help either with suspension or application.

 

Yeah it's a liquid (at room temp) so would be hard to get it into the dry stuff

Edited by liambesaw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bill:

Small amounts of manganese in crystalline glaze produces silver crystals. That color only results when an ionic bond occurs which creates a distinct crystal lattice- hexagonal closed pack  ( most glazes are covalent bonds) That ionic bond is heat sensitive- which darkens the color to a bronze luster.   I suspect (not sure) this glaze may be using one of two industrial pigments or metallic Frits. One company makes metallic coated Frits, the other makes high temperature pigments. MEA is an emulsifier- chemical suspension agent. The use of MEA also suggests to me that metallic Frits might be in play?  Silicon carbide provides chemical reduction in an oxidized kiln- doubt seriously it is used here because it would alter the color. 

T

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Liam, Bill , Min,  and glazenerd

Just catching up :D Thanks so much for all this great info! The work I'm making is sculptural so will not need to be food safe and I can fire at any cone up to 10.  

On second thought I'm not as concerned with the iridescent quality of Eosin, but moreso the reflective quality of the Palladium. But I think using a mother of pearl luster is a great solution for iridescence.

For the mirror look, the closest I have found is this recipe on glazy. 

Please forgive if this is a stupid question but is there a way to "turn" this glaze a color... say, red?  Maybe by removing the copper and adding cadmium stain?

And/or is it crazy to start with the 5 ingredients Min listed, add some colorants and see what happens?

Thanks again!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, cdudley said:

Liam, Bill , Min,  and glazenerd

Just catching up :D Thanks so much for all this great info! The work I'm making is sculptural so will not need to be food safe and I can fire at any cone up to 10.  

On second thought I'm not as concerned with the iridescent quality of Eosin, but moreso the reflective quality of the Palladium. But I think using a mother of pearl luster is a great solution for iridescence.

For the mirror look, the closest I have found is this recipe on glazy. 

Please forgive if this is a stupid question but is there a way to "turn" this glaze a color... say, red?  Maybe by removing the copper and adding cadmium stain?

And/or is it crazy to start with the 5 ingredients Min listed, add some colorants and see what happens?

Thanks again!

No you can't make it red like that, it is the dark metals (RIO, Manganese) that are driving that metallic finish you're seeing actual metal on the surface there

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/24/2019 at 8:14 PM, glazenerd said:

Bill:

Small amounts of manganese in crystalline glaze produces silver crystals. That color only results when an ionic bond occurs which creates a distinct crystal lattice- hexagonal closed pack  ( most glazes are covalent bonds) That ionic bond is heat sensitive- which darkens the color to a bronze luster.   I suspect (not sure) this glaze may be using one of two industrial pigments or metallic Frits. One company makes metallic coated Frits, the other makes high temperature pigments. MEA is an emulsifier- chemical suspension agent. The use of MEA also suggests to me that metallic Frits might be in play?  Silicon carbide provides chemical reduction in an oxidized kiln- doubt seriously it is used here because it would alter the color. 

T

Knew you would have decent input, Thanks! Hard  to rely on that glaze as it is sensitive to thickness, temp etc.... over temp definitely turns bronze (ish) and thin coats are a mixed bag of black chrome, sort of .....  

Edited by Bill Kielb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, cdudley said:

On second thought I'm not as concerned with the iridescent quality of Eosin, but moreso the reflective quality of the Palladium. But I think using a mother of pearl luster is a great solution for iridescence.

Is this the type of gold you are looking for? Duncan Overglaze's are put over fired glazes and refired to a low temp. They are expensive and the fumes are horrendous while using the product, have to wear an organic filter  respirator and preferably work outdoors. 

image.png.d3ecc77c8609ceee8d2596bda643f5e0.png 

For the other colours you are looking for there are coloured lusters available, Glaser Ceramics has quite a few. These are also applied over a fired glaze and the fumes are nasty, need to wear an organic filter respirator and work outside for these too.

Edited by Min
correction made re respirator

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...and please note that organic vapor cartridge effective life starts ticking down when the package is opened; 3M indicates shelf life - unopened package - of five years.

When in use, the effective life may be less than an hour, e.g. spraying lacquer indoors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They're also not a substitution for ventilation.  They're rated for the safe limits of organic vapors, offering limited protection.  Basically a second layer of protection to help catch whatever makes it past ventilation.  

Like you couldn't liberate a big cloud of nitrogen dioxide and expect the filter to do the heavy lifting keeping you safe. (Substitute NO2 for any poisonous gas)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Fred Sweet said:

All-

Please note that a P100 respirator is a particulate filter for dusts. What is needed is an organic vapor filter. Two distinct filters removing different things. They are often found in combination, but one does not replace the other.

Regards,

Fred

Thanks for catching that Fred!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/25/2019 at 12:41 AM, Min said:

Is this the type of gold you are looking for? Duncan Overglaze's are put over fired glazes and refired to a low temp. They are expensive and the fumes are horrendous while using the product, have to wear an organic filter  respirator and preferably work outdoors. 

image.png.d3ecc77c8609ceee8d2596bda643f5e0.png 

For the other colours you are looking for there are coloured lusters available, Glaser Ceramics has quite a few. These are also applied over a fired glaze and the fumes are nasty, need to wear an organic filter respirator and work outside for these too.

I've seen the glaser lusters, but I'm having a hard time telling from the pics what it really looks like... it doesn't appear like they are reflective...

I am imagining something more like a glaze that it is thick, moves, and has potentially a more varied surface.

I'm going to start trying some things soon and will update ya'll if I get anywhere. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.