Jump to content


Photo

Wondering how to do this brushwork


  • Please log in to reply
30 replies to this topic

#1 bigDave

bigDave

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 89 posts
  • LocationSo-Cal

Posted 09 April 2013 - 05:40 PM

Hola Folks,

Been Making bonsai pots for a decade. I make mostly unglazed, stoneware brown, electric fired stuff, I guess youd say utilitarian pots.

I have been admiring the very decorative porcelian pots coming out of Japan.

So I have been trying brushwork, on bisque. Looks like amateur hour. The best Ive done is in my avatar.




Any ideas as to how this work below is accomplished ?

And where do you get those amazing brushes that do such a fine line?

Attached Files



#2 TJR

TJR

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,131 posts
  • LocationCanada

Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:23 PM

bigDave;
1.Looks like high fire porcelain.
Piece one is painted over the unfired white glaze with cobalt carb or oxide. Then that area is waxed and some kind of yellow over glaze is applied.
2.Could be fired to stoneware temps, then a yellow enamel is applied at a lower temperature-like cone 012
3. The other one is painted with a manganese type stain of oxide over the unfired white glaze.
Mucho testing to find an opaque glaze that doesn't move.
Notice how I tied in the Spanish there.
4. I use Japanese bamboo brushes for my painting. Also you can buy fine liners called "riggers". They were used for painting rigging on paintings of ships. Don't ask me how I know this.
Check out my gallery post to see some examples of my work. I use this technique all the time.
TJR.

#3 bciskepottery

bciskepottery

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,369 posts

Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:26 PM

To improve my brush work, I've been taking a Chinese Brush Painting class, also called Sumi E. Fortunately, my instructor started out decorating tall vases in Taiwan and China after her schooling with her Masters.

I get my brushes from Oriental Art Supply http://www.orientalartsupply.com/ and Blue Heron Arts Store http://www.blueheronarts.com/index.php

Elizabeth Priddy has a dvd on using brush work (she was a student of my instructor years ago) http://www.elizabethpriddy.com/

Another good source is Linda Arbuckle http://lindaarbuckle.com/

It takes time and practice, much practice. And, you need to make sure you've got your chi.

#4 bigDave

bigDave

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 89 posts
  • LocationSo-Cal

Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:51 PM

My responses in CAPS
bigDave;

HI TOM- THANKS FOR THIS
1.Looks like high fire porcelain.

YES
Piece one is painted over the unfired white glaze with cobalt carb or oxide. Then that area is waxed and some kind of yellow over glaze is applied. .Could be fired to stoneware temps, then a yellow enamel is applied at a lower temperature-like cone 012

SO BISQUE THEN DIP IN WHITE,(NOT CLEAR /?) THEN OVERGLAZE DECORATIONS ON TOP. WAX THE PANEL AND AREAS WANTING TO RESIST THE YELLOW, DIP IN YELLOW GLAZE ? fIRE TO MATURITY--- THEN AN ENAMEL? NOT SEEING THE SECOND YELLOW DIFFERENCE

3. The other one is painted with a manganese type stain of oxide over the unfired white glaze.

OKAY SURE SAME AS BEFORE DIFFERNT COLOR OVER WHITE...HUMMM COOL

Mucho testing to find an opaque glaze that doesn't move.
SURE...BUENO

Notice how I tied in the Spanish there.

4. I use Japanese bamboo brushes for my painting. Also you can buy fine liners called "riggers".
OKAY, HAD TO SQUINT ME EYES TO MAKE SURE I READ THAT RIGHT

They were used for painting rigging on paintings of ships. Don't ask me how I know this.
Check out my gallery post to see some examples of my work. I use this technique all the time.

RIGHT AND YOUR WORK IS AWESOME.

tHE LOOK OF THIS IS DIFFERENT, ALMOST LIKE ITS SITTING ON TOP, YA KNOW, ITS DOESNT BLEND INTO THE GLAZE AS YOURS DOES.
I SEE THE FOLKS IN ASIA ON YOU TUBE AND THE DECORATING MEDIUM FLOWS SO NICELY, MINE IS NOT, BUT IM DECORATING ON BISQUE THEN PUTTING A CLEAR OVER.

SO WHITE, THEN OVER GLAZE IS THE TICKET EH?

#5 bigDave

bigDave

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 89 posts
  • LocationSo-Cal

Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:54 PM

To improve my brush work, I've been taking a Chinese Brush Painting class, also called Sumi E. Fortunately, my instructor started out decorating tall vases in Taiwan and China after her schooling with her Masters.

I get my brushes from Oriental Art Supply http://www.orientalartsupply.com/ and Blue Heron Arts Store http://www.blueheronarts.com/index.php

Elizabeth Priddy has a dvd on using brush work (she was a student of my instructor years ago) http://www.elizabethpriddy.com/

Another good source is Linda Arbuckle http://lindaarbuckle.com/

It takes time and practice, much practice. And, you need to make sure you've got your chi.

tHANKS-- OFF TO STUDY THOSE SITES

#6 bigDave

bigDave

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 89 posts
  • LocationSo-Cal

Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:51 PM

Ordered some brushes,

thanks for the tip

#7 bigDave

bigDave

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 89 posts
  • LocationSo-Cal

Posted 12 April 2013 - 10:35 PM

Anyone else have some ideas on the subject?

TJR, Did you see comment above about your great advice.


thank you kindly

Big d

#8 Round2potter

Round2potter

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 60 posts
  • LocationPortland, Orygun

Posted 13 April 2013 - 07:44 PM

Try brushing onto wetware (leatherhard) as painting on bisque sucks up so much moisture from the brush that it can make it hard to get detailed, seamless lines.
"There is no such thing as cheating in clay; So long as it works"

#9 TJR

TJR

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,131 posts
  • LocationCanada

Posted 13 April 2013 - 08:29 PM

My responses in CAPS
bigDave;

HI TOM- THANKS FOR THIS
1.Looks like high fire porcelain.

YES
Piece one is painted over the unfired white glaze with cobalt carb or oxide. Then that area is waxed and some kind of yellow over glaze is applied. .Could be fired to stoneware temps, then a yellow enamel is applied at a lower temperature-like cone 012

SO BISQUE THEN DIP IN WHITE,(NOT CLEAR /?) THEN OVERGLAZE DECORATIONS ON TOP. WAX THE PANEL AND AREAS WANTING TO RESIST THE YELLOW, DIP IN YELLOW GLAZE ? fIRE TO MATURITY--- THEN AN ENAMEL? NOT SEEING THE SECOND YELLOW DIFFERENCE

3. The other one is painted with a manganese type stain of oxide over the unfired white glaze.

OKAY SURE SAME AS BEFORE DIFFERNT COLOR OVER WHITE...HUMMM COOL

Mucho testing to find an opaque glaze that doesn't move.
SURE...BUENO

Notice how I tied in the Spanish there.

4. I use Japanese bamboo brushes for my painting. Also you can buy fine liners called "riggers".
OKAY, HAD TO SQUINT ME EYES TO MAKE SURE I READ THAT RIGHT

They were used for painting rigging on paintings of ships. Don't ask me how I know this.
Check out my gallery post to see some examples of my work. I use this technique all the time.

RIGHT AND YOUR WORK IS AWESOME.

tHE LOOK OF THIS IS DIFFERENT, ALMOST LIKE ITS SITTING ON TOP, YA KNOW, ITS DOESNT BLEND INTO THE GLAZE AS YOURS DOES.
I SEE THE FOLKS IN ASIA ON YOU TUBE AND THE DECORATING MEDIUM FLOWS SO NICELY, MINE IS NOT, BUT IM DECORATING ON BISQUE THEN PUTTING A CLEAR OVER.

SO WHITE, THEN OVER GLAZE IS THE TICKET EH?

Dave;
The question is;"What is that yellow? It is probably an over-glaze enamel. Vanadium? You have to find a white matt glaze that is hard enough to take your brush strokes. Some glazes powder up when on-glaze painting is applied. It's a bit of trial and error. Feel free to email me @ tomroberts007@gmail.com and I will send you a couple of recipes. What temp. are you firing to?
That was a dangling participle. Sorry. At which temperature are you firing?
TJR.

#10 Chantay

Chantay

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 196 posts
  • LocationVirginia, USA

Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:53 AM

bciskepottery,

thanks for those links. I discovered that Hsi-Mei, the teacher of Elizabeth Priddy, is teaching classes here in VA. I am looking into taking from her. When I started working in clay I would use underglaze to create the blue line work look It doesn't work to well. I am now experimenting with oxides.
- chantay

#11 bciskepottery

bciskepottery

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,369 posts

Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:15 PM

bciskepottery,

thanks for those links. I discovered that Hsi-Mei, the teacher of Elizabeth Priddy, is teaching classes here in VA. I am looking into taking from her. When I started working in clay I would use underglaze to create the blue line work look It doesn't work to well. I am now experimenting with oxides.



Hsi-Mei is teaching at both Liberty Town Arts in Fredericksburg and at Lorton Workhouse Arts in Lorton. She's a good teacher. http://www.hsi-meich...watercolor.com/

#12 TJR

TJR

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,131 posts
  • LocationCanada

Posted 14 April 2013 - 06:20 PM

Anyone else have some ideas on the subject?

TJR, Did you see comment above about your great advice.


thank you kindly

Big d

Dave;
Yes I did, and thank-you for the complement.
TJR.

#13 JBaymore

JBaymore

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 2,739 posts
  • LocationWilton, NH USA

Posted 14 April 2013 - 06:20 PM

The quality of the brushing medium matters to get the fluid gestural qualities of line you are observing.

It is likely not just oxide and water being used. Plus the cobalt (and manganese) likely has been ground (by hand) very finely.

Decorating mediums used for this kind of decoration often contain multiple ingredients........ the coloring oxide, a small amount of a flux supplier like a frit, a small amount of a very fine clay (like a ball clay), then suspended in a cariier that is a mixture of a suryp made by boiling seaweed til it disolves, or something like propylene glycol, glycerine, and often also a glue to make it not smudge..... like a rice flour glue or even something like Elmers white glue.

It is important to GRIND the mixture very finely. This is done in a porcelain mortar and pestle by hand, or in a grinding machine that automates this process.

Use red food coloring to rough out the design on the piece...... and then follow up with the actual painting medium. Red food coloring burns out.

best,

.......................john
John Baymore
Immediate Past President; Potters Council
Professor of Ceramics; New Hampshire Insitute of Art

http://www.JohnBaymore.com

#14 bigDave

bigDave

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 89 posts
  • LocationSo-Cal

Posted 14 April 2013 - 08:14 PM

Try brushing onto wetware (leatherhard) as painting on bisque sucks up so much moisture from the brush that it can make it hard to get detailed, seamless lines.


Round,
Yes agreed... thanks for thinking about this

#15 bigDave

bigDave

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 89 posts
  • LocationSo-Cal

Posted 14 April 2013 - 08:20 PM


Dave;
The question is;"What is that yellow? It is probably an over-glaze enamel. Vanadium? You have to find a white matt glaze that is hard enough to take your brush strokes. Some glazes powder up when on-glaze painting is applied. It's a bit of trial and error. Feel free to email me @ tomroberts007@gmail.com and I will send you a couple of recipes. What temp. are you firing to?
That was a dangling participle. Sorry. At which temperature are you firing?
TJR.


White matte...check

Cone Five ...laguna frost... http://www.lagunacla...stern/wc437.php

Trial and error...check

email you...most kind

Dangling, ...uh ... no apology needed

#16 bigDave

bigDave

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 89 posts
  • LocationSo-Cal

Posted 14 April 2013 - 08:41 PM


Very good info. J-Bay

Like the food coloring idea, shall use it

Now... Im buying off the shelf amaco, velvets stuff like that...barking up the wrong tree there?

Still needa grinda ?


okay Thanks much fellas...


a plan is coming together

#17 JBaymore

JBaymore

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 2,739 posts
  • LocationWilton, NH USA

Posted 14 April 2013 - 09:14 PM



Very good info. J-Bay

Like the food coloring idea, shall use it

Now... Im buying off the shelf amaco, velvets stuff like that...barking up the wrong tree there?

Still needa grinda ?


okay Thanks much fellas...


a plan is coming together


Japanese brushwork with cobalt decoration like this is often done directly onto the RAW procelain. Much different consistency from bisqued. Doesn't "suck" the brush dry quite so fast. Try both ways and see what you like. Cobalt pigment is so strong...... if you screw up either on the raw clay or the bisque....... you can't get fully "rid" of it.... and it gets trashed anyway... so not much risk to trying on the raw clay.

I've visited the the Kondo family in Kyoto (their studio near Kyomizudera) and watched the brushwork being done. The grinding is considered an important and integral part of the process.

Also note that cobalt CARBONATE (here in the USA) comes in a finer particle size than cobalt OXIDE. So I'd start there.

I never use commercial underglazes... so can't really say. I ALWAYS use commercial overglaze enamels... and grind them too.

best,

........................john
John Baymore
Immediate Past President; Potters Council
Professor of Ceramics; New Hampshire Insitute of Art

http://www.JohnBaymore.com

#18 yedrow

yedrow

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 405 posts

Posted 14 April 2013 - 10:21 PM

To improve my brush work, I've been taking a Chinese Brush Painting class, also called Sumi E. Fortunately, my instructor started out decorating tall vases in Taiwan and China after her schooling with her Masters.

I get my brushes from Oriental Art Supply http://www.orientalartsupply.com/ and Blue Heron Arts Store http://www.blueheronarts.com/index.php

Elizabeth Priddy has a dvd on using brush work (she was a student of my instructor years ago) http://www.elizabethpriddy.com/

Another good source is Linda Arbuckle http://lindaarbuckle.com/

It takes time and practice, much practice. And, you need to make sure you've got your chi.


Could you recommend a basic set of brushes that work well on bisque for someone who is just beginning to learn brush strokes?

Joel.

#19 scoobydoozie

scoobydoozie

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 130 posts
  • LocationClearwater, FL

Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:49 AM

I'm surprised no one mentioned china paints.... If the second piece looks like the detail is on top of the glaze, it is probably china paints. They are applied after the glaze is fired and then refired to about cone 016. Check the directions on the china paints if you try it. Here's a website that sells supplies. http://www.marylandc...g-supplies.html
Try searching on YouTube or Google for China Painting techniques...

Good Luck!

#20 bigDave

bigDave

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 89 posts
  • LocationSo-Cal

Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:48 AM

I'm surprised no one mentioned china paints.... If the second piece looks like the detail is on top of the glaze, it is probably china paints. They are applied after the glaze is fired and then refired to about cone 016. Check the directions on the china paints if you try it. Here's a website that sells supplies. http://www.marylandc...g-supplies.html
Try searching on YouTube or Google for China Painting techniques...

Good Luck!


I think you just did...Scooby, rank roo

The site that has given me the inspiration, is strictly Japanese potters and that is what Im shooting for, look wise. But now clues given at the latest blog post seem to signal china paints, what he call overglaze enamels are being used. Here is a quote then the link

Three views of a fantastic overglaze enamel celadon pot with goldfish. The thickness of the enamel makes the goldfish seem almost 3 dimensional. The detailing to the feet is especially nice.


http://japanesebonsaipots.net/




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users