tin oxide?

[Iforgot]

Hey potters,

 

I need help, I am making a cone 10 purple, red, buleish glaze and it calls for tin oxide which is way too expensive! Is there a chemical I can use to replace it?

 

 

Darrel,

 

If it helps I have attached a picture of the glaze on red clay

[Mark C.]

I would need your tin formula percentage to help better but yes you can use other opacifiers but keep in mind tin is one of the best.

(Tin oxide is the most effective glaze opacifier of all. One or two percent will help opacify a glaze and improve its brightness and gloss. Normally about five percent of tin oxide added to a glaze will completely opacify it.Tin oxide also has a refractory effect on glazes and can increase craze resistance.)

Check out this site http://digitalfire.com/4sight/properties/ceramic_property_glaze_opacifier.html

and work on some tests with other opacifiers-test test test

As your glaze does not look that red and if its a low tin percentage I would say its very possible for substitution- again testing will be KEY.

I use tin in my red but its a copper red  glaze and tin price for me as I bought so much so long ago is no worries. While on this price note buy these materials in quantity when they are cheap and hoard them till needed-you can always sell them. I have a life time supply of many chemicals-need a ton of Gerstley Borate? Or 30#s of cobalt carbonate-I have them both.Good luck with the testing.

Mark</div>

[LilyT]

I heard that USPigment.com has excellent prices.

And they do! I wish that I had remembered this

before placing my last order... but you all should take

advantage of them. They also have some clay

raw materials at good prices, too.

 

-Lily

[yedrow]

US pigment has the best prices I've seen. It's still expensive though.

[LilyT]

US pigment has the best prices I've seen. It's still expensive though.

 

 

yep, still expensive, alas.

 

 

However, before today, I'd never before even considered getting such items as molybdenum

sulfide, tungsten chloride, and antimony trioxide (why not the pentavalent?)... but

there they all are quite temptingly mixed in amongst gerstley borate (original),

cobalt carbonate, and iron oxide-black.

 

Wonder what you could do with them... Joel, you seem to be the kind of person who

would probably know!

[Marcia Selsor]

I first would say that if you look at the cost of a commercial red like Coyote glazes, they ar $179/ gallon. I think that was what I read when I followed up on a thread about copper reds that someone posted.

So mixing your own is much cheaper if you have the basic chemicals and then some special ones.Tin in iron reds is necessary as is bone ash.

they work together to create the matrix for iron red.

 

to answer Lily's question about molybdenum and tungsten. I used the molybdenum in crystalline glazes and I used the Tungsten in

"water color " techniques and water resist carving colored layers. the Tungsten gave me a very soft apple green.

Marcia

[TJR]

Take a look at your glaze and see if it contains copper carboate or black copper oxide. Tin in combination with copper makes the purples and reds. If you substitute another opacifier for the tin, like Zircopax, you may just get a white glaze.

TJR.

I don't know a source for cheap chemicals, sorry.

[neilestrick]

There are other opacifiers, if that's what the tin is being used for. But tin is also often used for the way it reacts with other oxides, like in chrome-tin pinks. So whether or not you can substitute will depend on the reason for the tin being in the recipe.

[Iforgot]

Thanks guys,

 

I found someone who will sell it to me by the gram. (I only need 1.5 grams)

 

 

 

 

Darrel

[Mark C.]

Thanks guys,

 

I found someone who will sell it to me by the gram. (I only need 1.5 grams)

 

 

 

 

Darrel

 

 

I could have mailed you that much for postage costs.

Mark

[TJR]

Thanks guys,

 

I found someone who will sell it to me by the gram. (I only need 1.5 grams)

 

 

 

 

Darrel

 

 

I think you are mistaken, with respect. 1.5 grams would only be enough for a styrofoam cup of glaze,as in a total test of 100 grams with the tin at 1.5.Is that really all you need?

TJR.

[neilestrick]

Thanks guys,

 

I found someone who will sell it to me by the gram. (I only need 1.5 grams)

 

 

 

 

Darrel

 

 

I'm just picturing you in a dark alley buying a few grams of white powder...

[Mark C.]

TRJ

I thought that a cup full is what he needed? It never occurred that he may need more-I just assumed he was airbrushing a small piece.

Mark

[TJR]

TRJ

I thought that a cup full is what he needed? It never occurred that he may need more-I just assumed he was airbrushing a small piece.

Mark

 

 

Mark;

You could be right. Why don't you mail him an envelope with 1.5 grams in it. I wouldn't be able to send an envelope of white powder across the border.Canadian border that is, not the Mexican one.

TJR.

[Mark C.]

Since I live in Humboldt County known for things other than pottery-

I can see that dark alley thing only here its on the town square-goes like this

 

Hey got any grams of good stuff??

only the best called -tin Ox better than any Ox you can find

Dude that sounds awesome I'll take a gram and 1/2 of the Tin Ox

need matches or papers?

Naw I'm going to glaze it

wo dude that sounds heavy

 

Tie die shirt guy and hoodie guy head separate ways after the green exchange

 

Here in Humboldt Bud is not a beer

and no I'm not into it at ALL-I make Pots not smoke em

Though I did raku some time back and stayed in a Holiday Inn.

Mark

[Iforgot]

Thanks guys,

 

I found someone who will sell it to me by the gram. (I only need 1.5 grams)

 

 

 

 

Darrel

 

 

I could have mailed you that much for postage costs.

Mark

 

 

 

Really, that would be great; the lady says she wants $10!!!!!!????!!!

[Iforgot]

Thanks guys,

 

I found someone who will sell it to me by the gram. (I only need 1.5 grams)

 

 

 

 

Darrel

 

 

I'm just picturing you in a dark alley buying a few grams of white powder...

 

 

 

 

 

HAHA thats so true!!!

[yedrow]

US pigment has the best prices I've seen. It's still expensive though.

 

 

yep, still expensive, alas.

 

 

However, before today, I'd never before even considered getting such items as molybdenum

sulfide, tungsten chloride, and antimony trioxide (why not the pentavalent?)... but

there they all are quite temptingly mixed in amongst gerstley borate (original),

cobalt carbonate, and iron oxide-black.

 

Wonder what you could do with them... Joel, you seem to be the kind of person who

would probably know!

 

 

I'm sorry Lily, I don't have much of an idea. I like thinking about it but I'm still in the part where I'm trying to figure out the relationship between hydroxyl and sodium cations in clay particles as it relates to thixotropy, viscosity, specific gravity, and apparent glaze thickness. In fact, I'm not real clear on thixotropy as a glaze property. I was thinking that it meant one thing, now I'm wondering if it means another. The whole rheology thing is driving me nuts. I have no real idea how the valency of metals effects glaze color beyond a general understanding of reflection, refraction, and transmission, and that the electrical conductivity of metals is related to their reflectivity (possibly a phonon thing). I would like to use some exotic materials but after my blunder with a vanadium purchase I think I'll wait for now. Please though, do tell me what you find. I've never even seen glaze recipes that mention these materials. I think I've seen some in stains. In any event, glazes are only part of the game. A pot will never really look good unless it looks good unglazed. And then, you shouldn't need that much in a glaze. At least in my opinion.

 

Joel.

[Iforgot]

TRJ

I thought that a cup full is what he needed? It never occurred that he may need more-I just assumed he was airbrushing a small piece.

Mark

 

 

Mark;

You could be right. Why don't you mail him an envelope with 1.5 grams in it. I wouldn't be able to send an envelope of white powder across the border.Canadian border that is, not the Mexican one.

TJR.

 

 

 

 

Hey,

 

I think I could make a couple pints, because i just did the math and tin oxide only makes up 2.722177% of the glaze!

 

 

 

Darrel

[LilyT]

I first would say that if you look at the cost of a commercial red like Coyote glazes, they ar $179/ gallon. I think that was what I read when I followed up on a thread about copper reds that someone posted.

So mixing your own is much cheaper if you have the basic chemicals and then some special ones.Tin in iron reds is necessary as is bone ash.

they work together to create the matrix for iron red.

 

to answer Lily's question about molybdenum and tungsten. I used the molybdenum in crystalline glazes and I used the Tungsten in

"water color " techniques and water resist carving colored layers. the Tungsten gave me a very soft apple green.

Marcia

 

 

Hi, Marcia!

 

Thanks for chiming in on the interesting element :-). Your depth of knowledge is amazing... I

always feel like pottery has so many more possibilities when reading this forum. So with your

tip I was able to find that molybdenum is a 'crystal enhancer' - did you find it helpful in your

use? (coincidentally, I have a friend who is newly interested in cone 6 crystal glazes, and

this conversation dovetails with that one nicely).

 

Warmest regards,

Lily

[LilyT]

US pigment has the best prices I've seen. It's still expensive though.

 

 

yep, still expensive, alas.

 

 

However, before today, I'd never before even considered getting such items as molybdenum

sulfide, tungsten chloride, and antimony trioxide (why not the pentavalent?)... but

there they all are quite temptingly mixed in amongst gerstley borate (original),

cobalt carbonate, and iron oxide-black.

 

Wonder what you could do with them... Joel, you seem to be the kind of person who

would probably know!

 

 

I'm sorry Lily, I don't have much of an idea. I like thinking about it but I'm still in the part where I'm trying to figure out the relationship between hydroxyl and sodium cations in clay particles as it relates to thixotropy, viscosity, specific gravity, and apparent glaze thickness. In fact, I'm not real clear on thixotropy as a glaze property. I was thinking that it meant one thing, now I'm wondering if it means another. The whole rheology thing is driving me nuts. I have no real idea how the valency of metals effects glaze color beyond a general understanding of reflection, refraction, and transmission, and that the electrical conductivity of metals is related to their reflectivity (possibly a phonon thing). I would like to use some exotic materials but after my blunder with a vanadium purchase I think I'll wait for now. Please though, do tell me what you find. I've never even seen glaze recipes that mention these materials. I think I've seen some in stains. In any event, glazes are only part of the game. A pot will never really look good unless it looks good unglazed. And then, you shouldn't need that much in a glaze. At least in my opinion.

 

Joel.

 

 

Ha, well I'd never even noticed these elements in recipes for anything before, I

guess I haven't been observant. It seems that I operate by 'rule of thumb' when

using clay and glaze materials :-(. When you figure out the stuff about thixotropy,

etc, will that be for your intellectual curiosity or is there something you have

in mind to apply it to? It would be nice if glaze thickness could somehow be

quantified and communicated...

I think that glaze and pot work together for the final effect, yes, but I am such

a novice in figuring out how to put it together. Maybe that's why I like atmospheric

firing so much, it adds what I lack in skill.

 

-Lily

[TJR]

Since I live in Humboldt County known for things other than pottery-

I can see that dark alley thing only here its on the town square-goes like this

 

Hey got any grams of good stuff??

only the best called -tin Ox better than any Ox you can find

Dude that sounds awesome I'll take a gram and 1/2 of the Tin Ox

need matches or papers?

Naw I'm going to glaze it

wo dude that sounds heavy

 

Tie die shirt guy and hoodie guy head separate ways after the green exchange

 

Here in Humboldt Bud is not a beer

and no I'm not into it at ALL-I make Pots not smoke em

 

Mark;

I get the raku reference-smoking pots and all, but I don't get the Holiday Inn reference. I am usually pretty quick.I agree with you about making pots and not smoking it.I don't think you can be serious about your art work and be stoned all the time.Did this thread take a sudden turn?

TJR.

Though I did raku some time back and stayed in a Holiday Inn.

Mark

 

[Mark C.]

TRJ its a reference to some bad advertising down here in the lower 48 warm states.It may be a usa thing only??

Mark

[yedrow]

Lily, I think I'm being obsessive about the glaze thickness and thixotropy stuff. But I can't help it. On top of that, what am I to do with a pound of vanadium??? I've actually considered making my own ball mill and seeing if I could make a yellow stain. Beyond that...

 

Joel.

[LilyT]

Joel,

 

The thixotropy stuff is intrinsically interesting. For glaze and other materials.

Also just fun to play around with.

 

 

The vanadium however, is dangerous. I learned in school that is has known

toxicity (because of it's use in industry, with concomitant worker exposure,

it's been studied in terms of health risks). And is also soluble, so it is

a dangerous inhalant since you tend to absorb 100% of anything that

enters the body through the lungs. I saw a clayart thread about

vanadium safety http://www.potters.org/subject44471.htm/

(with lots of good comments, and some commentary from john baymore

in fact.)

 

So, unless you really like yellow...

and are going to be very very careful as you use that ball mill to reduce

your vanadium into smaller and even more dangerous particles....

and you are going to produce non-functional ware...

this might be a good one to skip in favor of all those other interesting

projects you are involved in.

 

warmest regards,

Lily