packrat31 Posted January 30, 2023 Report Share Posted January 30, 2023 Hi all, I'm wondering how to know or test whether you need to replace one of your timers on a manual kiln. I have two timers that I'm questioning: 4300 Fixed Interval Timer or 4600 Repeat Cycle Timer The problem is that the bottom coils on my manual kiln turn on "high" when the kiln sitter is turned "on," with all the infinite switches turned off. I'm unsure whether it is a relay that died in the "closed" position or if it is a timer not working, because my kiln manual also says the bottom coils are directly connected to the power supply (which would explain them turning on when the kiln turns on). Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm (slowly!) trying to learn how to service my own kiln. W-DA1029-2-Therory.pdf W-DA-1029-2-Control-Panel.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callie Beller Diesel Posted January 30, 2023 Report Share Posted January 30, 2023 I’m commenting to help boost this. I’m not the biggest expert, but the timer on a manual kiln should override the kiln sitter and shut everything off. In fact, your kiln shouldn’t be able to turn on at all if the timer’s at 0, even though you can carefully override the sitter. If you need more technical info on your old Duncan kiln, Paragon took over the servicing of them years ago, and they do have all the manuals and wiring diagrams for your model. In the operator’s manual I found there, they do have all the troubleshooting steps to diagnose where a timer switch or a relay might be going sideways. https://eadn-wc04-7751283.nxedge.io/wp-content/uploads/LX_914_Duncan_Kiln_Owners_Manual.pdf packrat31 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted January 30, 2023 Report Share Posted January 30, 2023 Welcome to the overly-complicated world of Duncan Kilns! I can't get you any definitive answer on how to diagnose the timers on these old kilns. IMO, the best option is to do away with the timers completely and convert it to a standard manual kiln with either 3-way or infinite switches. Some of these timers are still available, but apparently some of them are not. There are a number of folks here on the forum who tinker with these kiln, so someone should be able to help. packrat31 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterH Posted January 30, 2023 Report Share Posted January 30, 2023 3 hours ago, packrat31 said: The problem is that the bottom coils on my manual kiln turn on "high" when the kiln sitter is turned "on," with all the infinite switches turned off. I'm unsure whether it is a relay that died in the "closed" position or if it is a timer not working, because my kiln manual also says the bottom coils are directly connected to the power supply (which would explain them turning on when the kiln turns on). What position is your 3-position rocker switch in? packrat31 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted January 31, 2023 Report Share Posted January 31, 2023 7 hours ago, packrat31 said: The problem is that the bottom coils on my manual kiln turn on "high" when the kiln sitter is turned "on," Unfortunately the bottom elements are hooked to a normally closed relay controlled by the repeat cycle timer. Since the relay is normally closed, the repeat cycle timer actually opens this switch turning off the elements. If the repeat cycle timer does not cycle about once per minute, then the elements stay on. I couldn’t agree more with Neil, adding a third infinite switch is probably the best fix I have seen for these. The timers are expensive and mostly extinct and really did not provide clarity in operation nor any real automation to this kiln. packrat31 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packrat31 Posted January 31, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2023 12 hours ago, Bill Kielb said: adding a third infinite switch is probably the best fix I have seen for these Thank you so much to everyone! It sounds like it's likely the RCT that's burnt out. Ideally, I want to control the bottom coils, not a timer. If it's not too much trouble, is anyone able to explain how I would go about adding a third infinite switch? Would this allow me to control the relays for the bottom coils that are always closed/turned on? According to the kiln theory manual, the only way to get "low" heat is by having the RCT cycle the coils on and off every 60 seconds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted January 31, 2023 Report Share Posted January 31, 2023 6 hours ago, packrat31 said: Thank you so much to everyone! It sounds like it's likely the RCT that's burnt out. Ideally, I want to control the bottom coils, not a timer. If it's not too much trouble, is anyone able to explain how I would go about adding a third infinite switch? Would this allow me to control the relays for the bottom coils that are always closed/turned on? According to the kiln theory manual, the only way to get "low" heat is by having the RCT cycle the coils on and off every 60 seconds. Assuming the wiring diagram above is the correct one for your kiln, you've got 3 sets of elements and only two infinite switches, so you'll need to add one more switch. Just drill into the box and put it wherever it fits. The top section and middle section can connect directly to an infinite switch. The bottom section cannot connect directly to a switch because infinite switches max out at 15 amps and the bottom section pulls 22amps. So for the bottom section you'll have to use a relay as a go-between. The infinite switch will cycle the relay on and off. You may be be able to re-use one of the relays currently in the kiln. packrat31 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted February 1, 2023 Report Share Posted February 1, 2023 (edited) This may help and I think this might illustrate Neil’s description above and ensure both legs of the bottom element are disconnected from power when off and sized for the load, it uses the existing relay in the top Left of your diagram. Disconnect all the wires with an “x” On power relay “A” move terminal wire #1 to terminal #4 Run a new 10 gauge high temp wire from relay terminal #9 and connect to L1 Run a new 10 gauge high temp wire from element connection to relay terminal #6 Install new infinite switch and run h2 & h1 to power relay A “coil” this will cycle power relay A and in turn the lower elements per the setting on the new infinite switch Intercept L1 & L2 as shown and connect to new infinite switch. Note since these are normally closed, relay B is just fine as is unpowered except for the coil connections.which should be removed. Note all timers and high, medium, low switch will be entirely disconnected and non functional. Pretty sure that all works, maybe folks here can double check me. Edited February 1, 2023 by Bill Kielb packrat31 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packrat31 Posted February 21, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2023 On 1/31/2023 at 11:13 PM, Bill Kielb said: This may help and I think this might illustrate Neil’s description above Bill, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to map this out for me and share. I have been looking it over again and again to familiarize myself with it. I foresee myself taking on the challenge... with my electrician uncle (I am a novice!) On 1/31/2023 at 6:18 PM, neilestrick said: Assuming the wiring diagram above is the correct one for your kiln, you've got 3 sets of elements and only two infinite switches, so you'll need to add one more switch. And thank you, Neil! I'm determined to make this silly Duncan kiln work for me. Having each set of elements on an infinite switch will be a game changer. Bill Kielb 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted February 22, 2023 Report Share Posted February 22, 2023 19 hours ago, packrat31 said: I foresee myself taking on the challenge... with my electrician uncle (I am a novice!) No worries, hope it works out for you. When your uncle looks at it, the top right relay can simply go away connecting the wire on 1 to 7 and 3 to 9. Just left it in untouched for simplicity. It could become a backup for relay on the left marked A should it ever wear out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packrat31 Posted September 20, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 (edited) Hi Bill, I have yet to add the new switch, as I've had a lingering idea. You helped me greatly in another post I made re: a Euclids 208V kiln a while back and wondered if you have any wisdom to share. Basically this 208V kiln needs to be rewired for 240V for me to use it. It also has a precious computer. I am wondering if I could take off the computer and rewire it with the Duncan kiln (above) I currently use. Just maybe I could kill two birds with one stone - upgrade my Duncan and make use of this extra Euclid kiln kicking around. Your thoughts and opinions are always welcome! I will post both kiln diagrams below. Like always - thank you ... and learning lots Duncan_W-DA-1029-2-Control-Panel.pdf Euclid_CRT180AF diagram.pdf Edited September 20, 2023 by packrat31 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted September 20, 2023 Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 You cannot put the controller directly onto the Duncan. The control box isn't appropriate for a digital controller and the supporting parts. You can, however, use the controller to build a wall-mount system that the Duncan can plug into. You could actually use it for both kilns that way, just unplug and Duncan and plug in the Euclids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted September 21, 2023 Report Share Posted September 21, 2023 (edited) 9 hours ago, packrat31 said: Your thoughts and opinions are always welcome I think Neil said it. For the controller I would add that it will take a bit more electrical wherewithal than just the previously contemplated switch change. Some things to think of: using an old controller for both kilns also appears your kiln likely becomes single zone and provisions to move the thermo couple from kiln to kiln becomes necessary. Converting the Euclid to 240 v is pretty straight forward, new elements, adjust the transformer primary jumpers to run on 240 v rather than 208v and you are pretty much good to go and fully functional with a high fire kiln and it’s controller. The Duncan is marked as cone 8 and already a sitter kiln. For simplicity and two working kilns I would be inclined to just change the elements in the Euclids and go the switch route for the Duncan as a mostly bisque kiln. Edited September 21, 2023 by Bill Kielb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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