Paragon switch repair

[EarthToMatthew]

Hey everybody, I just bought my first kiln. It's a used Paragon A81B,  240v manual kiln with a kiln sitter, it has 4 switch settings: off, low, medium and high. 3 of the 4 elements will come on but only when both knobs are switched to the high position. otherwise nothing happens at all. I ran my kiln for nearly 20 hours but never it got up to cone 06. I've checked all the elements and there seems to be connectivity, so I figure my problem is the switches. Does this sound right to anybody else?  

I looked on Paragon's website and found this 240 volt infinite switch,  would that be compatible with my kiln?  Thanks in advance for any help!

Edited September 16, 2022 by EarthToMatthew

[oldlady]

you have checked the continuity of the elements but  are they sitting neatly in the slot running straight up and down or do they lean over on each other?   as a buyer of a used kiln, few people know about this sign of wear.   it is natural for the elements to eventually wear out and one of the signs is the leaning.   the electricity still runs through but not enough.

you will have answers here from the experts in kiln repair but it is not hard to look ant the elements first.   photos of your kiln taken from holding the camera inside it about halfway down will show them clearly.  if it is something else, you will get an answer if your photos cover the entire kiln.

i am sorry if you are an electrical expert and i misread your post as a beginner.

[EarthToMatthew]

2 hours ago, oldlady said:

you have checked the continuity of the elements but  are they sitting neatly in the slot running straight up and down or do they lean over on each other?   as a buyer of a used kiln, few people know about this sign of wear.   it is natural for the elements to eventually wear out and one of the signs is the leaning.   the electricity still runs through but not enough.

you will have answers here from the experts in kiln repair but it is not hard to look ant the elements first.   photos of your kiln taken from holding the camera inside it about halfway down will show them clearly.  if it is something else, you will get an answer if your photos cover the entire kiln.

i am sorry if you are an electrical expert and i misread your post as a beginner.

Hey thanks for your advice, I've just added some photos. I'm definitely not an electrical expert so you are right about my being a beginner. Do my element photos tell you anything or should I take different ones?

[oldlady]

the element photos do not show anything but the wall and shadows.   hold the camera inside the middle of the kiln.  point the lens toward the wall and parallel to the wall.  now you will get a shot of the actual elements inside each groove.  that is what you want.   you have one in the curved section at the top.  it looks ok, the rest could be sitting straight in the grooves but crowded right next to each other, jam packed.  not good.

the repair pros will like your other photos except for being sideways like lots of phones show.    i do not have a cell phone and just wonder why they come out sideways.

[Bill Kielb]

Just a first question, it is an old Paragon that requires 240v with a neutral and an earth ground. Do you have Two (2) 120v circuits and a fully rated Nuetral run to the machine?   This should be  your wiring diagram https://paragonweb.com/wp-content/uploads/A82B_A823B_A81B_A88B_AA8B_AA8B3B_WD_PL.pdf

four way switch operation below requires both 120v circuits AND a nuetral.

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Bill Kielb

[EarthToMatthew]

14 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

Just a first question, it is an old Paragon that requires 240v with a neutral and an earth ground. Do you have Two (2) 120v circuits and a fully rated Nuetral run to the machine?   This should be  your wiring diagram https://paragonweb.com/wp-content/uploads/A82B_A823B_A81B_A88B_AA8B_AA8B3B_WD_PL.pdf

four way switch operation below requires both 120v circuits AND a nuetral.

 

 

 

Hey Bill, thanks for taking the time to help me out. I've printed out the diagrams I'm going to show them to my Dad, he's the one who wired the kiln up for me. He has a lot of experience with electrical but may not have known how this kiln in particular should have been wired. I'll be back with more info once I speak to him about it.

[EarthToMatthew]

15 hours ago, oldlady said:

the element photos do not show anything but the wall and shadows.   hold the camera inside the middle of the kiln.  point the lens toward the wall and parallel to the wall.  now you will get a shot of the actual elements inside each groove.  that is what you want.   you have one in the curved section at the top.  it looks ok, the rest could be sitting straight in the grooves but crowded right next to each other, jam packed.  not good.

the repair pros will like your other photos except for being sideways like lots of phones show.    i do not have a cell phone and just wonder why they come out sideways.

Yeah you're right haha I could have done better with the photos. I'll get some better ones of the elements. Phone photos vary depending on how you hold your phone  while taking the picture (vertical or horizontal). I think a lot of people don't adjust the photos because we are all used to browsing the internet on our phones, so you can just turn your phone sideways to see the photo right side up.

[Bill Kielb]

56 minutes ago, EarthToMatthew said:

He has a lot of experience with electrical but may not have known how this kiln in particular should have been wired.

Just a quick reminder, for kilns in North America electrical is a bit different as in: the breaker needs to be sized for at least 125% of the load but no greater than 150%. NEC sizing rules. Secs. 210-22(c), 220-3(a), 220-10(b), and 384-16(c)

Basically they are considered a continuous resistive load. A 40 amp breaker and wiring, if my math is right.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Bill Kielb

[PeterH]

A and B series instruction and service manual
https://ltt.arizona.edu/sites/ltt.lab.arizona.edu/files/SM and MED Paragon A and B series Instruction and Service Manual.pdf
A diagram showing which elements should receive how-much power for various settings of the rotary switches is shown on right -hand side of p24 (26th page in pdf) and the top left of p25 (27th page in pdf). For example ...

 

Firing Schedule Poster https://paragonweb.com/wp-content/uploads/A-82B-FSP.pdf
... I've no idea what the "Extension Switch" is.

[EarthToMatthew]

Hey folks, so I've determined that the switches are definitely the issue, I took them off and found that they were very corroded.  I've been told this switch would be compatible and have ordered two of them. https://www.theceramicshop.com/product/26821/skutt-new-3-position-switch/

I found this diagram of the switch on the manufacturer's website if it can be helpful in any way. https://gottak.com/en/conmutadores.html?id=4RH

This is the conversion chart that came with the switches: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0272/1968/9606/files/New_Style_3-Heat_Switch_Conversion_Instructions.pdf?v=1593277799

My problem now is that I've looked at conversion charts and nothing lines up quite right. Can anyone here confirm if these switches are in fact compatible? If so, how do I determine where on the switches I should connect each component of my kiln?

Here is a wiring diagram for my kiln: https://eadn-wc05-4586769.nxedge.io/wp-content/uploads/A82WD.pdf

Here is another diagram I've been looking at for a switch wiring refrence: https://eadn-wc05-4586769.nxedge.io/wp-content/uploads/4way_Switch_Conversion-Ver3-Sept2017OCR.pdf

Thanks to anyone who takes the time to have a look at this!

 

[Bill Kielb]

7 hours ago, EarthToMatthew said:

Here is another diagram I've been looking at for a switch wiring refrence: https://eadn-wc05-4586769.nxedge.io/wp-content/uploads/4way_Switch_Conversion-Ver3-Sept2017OCR.pdf

Thanks to anyone who takes the time to have a look at this!

 

From your pictures it appears you have two different switches currently installed in the kiln. The black maybe an Ark-les and the red maybe an ivensys. IF TRUE then you will need to follow the conversion chart lead for lead in the link above. Nice crisp well lit photos of the existing switches AND the new one would confirm that for folks here and allow for clear helpful direction.

I did notice several questions above have gone un answered so I am just curious if the kiln wiring was confirmed as having a neutral, ground and two 120v circuits, have you measured the element resistance and what were the measurements (your elements in the picture look very spread out, so maybe worn) and how did you determine the switches are at fault, other than the corrosion - do the elements fail to sequence as expected? The red switch appears to be a replacement and in good condition.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Bill Kielb

[neilestrick]

@EarthToMatthew A gets the hot, D gets the neutral. 4 gets a wire from both elements (2 wires total). 2 and 1 each get a wire from one of the elements (1 wire each). You might have to swap 1 and 2 depending on which element heats up when on medium. I would have the top element on the top section and the bottom element on the bottom section heating on medium.

[EarthToMatthew]

16 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

From your pictures it appears you have two different switches currently installed in the kiln. The black maybe an Ark-les and the red maybe an ivensys. IF TRUE then you will need to follow the conversion chart lead for lead in the link above. Nice crisp well lit photos of the existing switches AND the new one would confirm that for folks here and allow for clear helpful direction.

I did notice several questions above have gone un answered so I am just curious if the kiln wiring was confirmed as having a neutral, ground and two 120v circuits, have you measured the element resistance and what were the measurements (your elements in the picture look very spread out, so maybe worn) and how did you determine the switches are at fault, other than the corrosion - do the elements fail to sequence as expected? The red switch appears to be a replacement and in good condition.

Hey Bill, thanks again for your time and information. You're probably right about the red switch being in good shape- I figured that as well but got 2 just in case. The black switch was my main problem, when I removed it something was rattling around inside and it fell out with a little shaking. It was a metal pin that I imagine connected something in there, the heating element that didn't work was the second from the top so it was connected to that switch. That pin is probably what used to connect the element to the switch in some capacity. That's my uninformed speculation anyway haha. 

My Dad confirmed that it does have neutral grounding as well as 2 120v circuits. I haven't checked the resistance of the elements but I can later this evening. 

I took some photos of the switches, the black one is the Arc-Les switch that was broken. The hole in the top left of the photo looks like it used to have a pin, I think that's what fell out. Based on other switches I've seen I think it was labeled N. Although I could be completely wrong and nothing was there before.  In the second photo, there are 4 pins:  top left is 1, top right is COM, bottom left is PL and bottom right 2.

The red one is the new Gottak switch. The top 4 pins are A, B, C, and D. The bottom pins are labeled 1-4, however the 3 slot is empty. 

[Bill Kielb]

49 minutes ago, EarthToMatthew said:

The red one is the new Gottak switch. The top 4 pins are A, B, C, and D. The bottom pins are labeled 1-4, however the 3 slot is empty. 

So follow the table in the link above or table below:

The old lead L1 ark- les, now connects to the ‘a’ terminal on the new switch. The old lead N connects to the ‘b’ terminal on the new switch. The old lead L2 on the Ark-les connects to the ‘e’ lead on the new switch. Go though the table from top to bottom and you should be good to go. If you bought a 3 way switch instead of a four way, you will run out of wires, your switch needs to have 7 connections. It appears the Ark-less is missing the #1 connection. I need to review both to see if there is a way to use a three way in place of a four way. It’s not likely though. Next easiest and usually cheapest is to replace both with infinite switches but will take some skill getting the connections in order or get a four way switch.

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Bill Kielb

[EarthToMatthew]

1 hour ago, Bill Kielb said:

So follow the table in the link above or table below:

The old lead L1 ark- les, now connects to the ‘a’ terminal on the new switch. The old lead N connects to the ‘b’ terminal on the new switch. The old lead L2 on the Ark-les connects to the ‘e’ lead on the new switch. Go though the table from top to bottom and you should be good to go. If you bought a 3 way switch instead of a four way, you will run out of wires, your switch needs to have 7 connections. It appears the Ark-less is missing the #1 connection. I need to review both to see if there is a way to use a three way in place of a four way. It’s not likely though. Next easiest and usually cheapest is to replace both with infinite switches but will take some skill getting the connections in order or get a four way switch.

 

From my understanding the switch I have is a 4 way. It's called a 3 heat switch but it has four positions like the switch on the KIln- Low, Medium, High and Off.

[Bill Kielb]

12 hours ago, EarthToMatthew said:

From my understanding the switch I have is a 4 way. It's called a 3 heat switch but it has four positions like the switch on the KIln- Low, Medium, High and 

 

@EarthToMatthew just looking closely at your new switch, it is seven lead. - follow the table described above. Ark-less to Gottak. If the Gottak has changed numbers / letters you will need to go to their website and correlate to the old number / letters. It appears to have enough leads.

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Bill Kielb

[EarthToMatthew]

On 10/19/2022 at 12:20 PM, neilestrick said:

@EarthToMatthew A gets the hot, D gets the neutral. 4 gets a wire from both elements (2 wires total). 2 and 1 each get a wire from one of the elements (1 wire each). You might have to swap 1 and 2 depending on which element heats up when on medium. I would have the top element on the top section and the bottom element on the bottom section heating on medium.

Hey Neil, thank you sir that sounds pretty straight forward I'll give it a shot.

[EarthToMatthew]

Hey guys, just wanted to give you an update. I did my first bisque fire to cone 06 last night, and everything seems to be in order. I really appreciate you making yourselves available to newbies like me. This kiln was difficult to research, so it was really nice to come here with my questions. Thanks!