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Kiln Cement/kiln Mortar


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#1 Roberta12

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 06:24 PM

I chunked out a piece of fire brick when I was replacing an element holder.   Any opinions as to which is better.....kiln cement (rather pricey) or kiln mortar?  

 

Thanks,

Roberta



#2 JBaymore

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 06:37 PM

What is called Greenpatch 421...... if you can find the original anymore.... also called Loupatch.

 

http://www.sheffield...ch-p/apg421.htm

 

Check your local supplier.

 

DON'T get it on the elements!

 

best,

 

........................john


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#3 Marcia Selsor

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 07:01 PM

Or if you have any ITC 100 around and some fiber, using gloves, goggles and mask, soak a piece of fiber into the ITC 100 and stuff it into place, I use this for filling cracks in kilns as well.

Marccia

#4 Roberta12

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 07:18 PM

I will check with my "local" supplier, but that is 3-4 hours away and neither of them ship.....so online shopping the way I go......thank you to both of you!

 

r



#5 neilestrick

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 09:21 PM

Call L&L and get some of their phosphate cement. Great for repairs.


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#6 docweathers

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 10:18 PM

Look in the January/February issue of Pottery Making Illustrated.  I have an article on page 10 describing how to do this.  The way they edited the article, it was not clear that the idea was to be able to patch the break in place. The rubber bands and cardboard were just for the demonstration. Replace them with whatever makes sense for holding things in place where your broken brick is located.


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#7 GEP

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 10:28 AM

Roberta,

I had a similar problem, and reattached the broken chunk of softbrick with Bailey IFB Mortar. Honestly I tried this product because it can be bought in a pint container for $4.50. I didn't think I needed a gallon of cement, or to spend too much money. This was about two years ago, and the broken piece is still firmly in place.

http://www.baileypot...lnmaterials.htm
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#8 Marcia Selsor

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 10:47 AM

That is good info, Mea. I do have expensive ITC around only because I spray my kilns with it, and Fiber because I build kilns with it. I did the type of repair I mentioned above when I was teaching at UH Manoa and the kilns (10 gas large gas kilns) needed cracks repaired, floors replaced , etc. I understand that many may not need to have these items in their shop. Good idea.
Marcia

#9 neilestrick

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 11:01 AM

The hardest part of making brick repairs is getting the cement to adhere well to both pieces. IFB is very porous, so often the cement dries enough before the two pieces are put together that it won't adhere. So I like to wet down both surfaces with a spray bottle (it takes a lot of water to really hydrate IFB), apply the cement to one side, and if it starts to dry too much, I spritz it with water just before putting the pieces together. The cement must be wet enough that it will flow into all the nooks and crannies of the broken brick and squeeze out of the crack just a little bit. Glueing new brick is much easier because you're dealing with smooth, flat surfaces. Also remember that the cement is very weak until it has dried completely.

 

http://hotkilns.com/...-cement-12-pint - Not the cheapest, but it works really well.


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#10 Roberta12

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 11:31 AM

The chunk of brick that I broke out is right behind the element holder, so I am not eager to take all of that apart.  Can I do a "patch job" without taking everything out??  All of the information is very helpful.   I was only on page six of PMI so had not yet seen Larry's great article about brick repair!  thank you so much for all your advice.   I will call and see if I can get either the ITC or phosphate cement.   And Yes, I will be very careful around the elements.  Thanks John. I am trying to attach a picture.....

 

Roberta

 

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#11 docweathers

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 01:10 PM

The hardest part of making brick repairs is getting the cement to adhere well to both pieces. IFB is very porous, so often the cement dries enough before the two pieces are put together that it won't adhere. So I like to wet down both surfaces with a spray bottle (it takes a lot of water to really hydrate IFB), apply the cement to one side, and if it starts to dry too much, I spritz it with water just before putting the pieces together. The cement must be wet enough that it will flow into all the nooks and crannies of the broken brick and squeeze out of the crack just a little bit. Glueing new brick is much easier because you're dealing with smooth, flat surfaces. Also remember that the cement is very weak until it has dried completely.

 

http://hotkilns.com/...-cement-12-pint - Not the cheapest, but it works really well.

As I discussed in the article,the way to get the adhesive to stick it to first pour a very thin layer so that it soaks deeply in to the IFB. Then you're actually bonding deep into the brick when you add a layer of thicker stuff and the matt. I just used plain old cheap kiln patch and had no problems with it not bonding well. I'm sure if you some of their fancier adhesives mentioned above it would work even better.


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#12 docweathers

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 01:15 PM

The chunk of brick that I broke out is right behind the element holder, so I am not eager to take all of that apart.  Can I do a "patch job" without taking everything out??  All of the information is very helpful.   I was only on page six of PMI so had not yet seen Larry's great article about brick repair!  thank you so much for all your advice.   I will call and see if I can get either the ITC or phosphate cement.   And Yes, I will be very careful around the elements.  Thanks John. I am trying to attach a picture.....

 

Roberta

on my Skutt the break was right up against the element. To protect the element I just put stiff paper between the element and the brick I was working on. when everything dried, it was easy to pull the paper out. The element remained free of cement


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#13 neilestrick

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 01:32 PM

The chunk of brick that I broke out is right behind the element holder, so I am not eager to take all of that apart.  Can I do a "patch job" without taking everything out??  All of the information is very helpful.   I was only on page six of PMI so had not yet seen Larry's great article about brick repair!  thank you so much for all your advice.   I will call and see if I can get either the ITC or phosphate cement.   And Yes, I will be very careful around the elements.  Thanks John. I am trying to attach a picture.....

 

Roberta

 

Carefully pull the element out so it's out of the way. If it's old it will be brittle so don't force it. You may want to pull the whole element holder out with the brick and do a complete repair, but if you can just open up the gap in the break a little bit you may be able to just squeeze some watered down cement into the gap with a slip trailer and push it closed.


Neil Estrick
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#14 Christophorio

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 08:31 PM

HDepot and others sell a "High Heat Furnace Cement".

Made by Oatey/Hercules. Model # 35515 , Store SKU # 654983.

It says it's good to 3k°.

I haven't tried it but have a half gallon sitting in the shop.

Please let us know if you do.

 

Chris



#15 hershey8

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 12:33 PM

I broke a brick on the top part of the wall on my paragon. Was able to fashion a staple from kanthal element wire and push it in to place. It seems to hold pretty well, but it was a good sized piece that I stapled. Might not work so well on a small repair. 

 

                                                                                                          ja



#16 neilestrick

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 01:01 PM

I broke a brick on the top part of the wall on my paragon. Was able to fashion a staple from kanthal element wire and push it in to place. It seems to hold pretty well, but it was a good sized piece that I stapled. Might not work so well on a small repair. 

 

                                                                                                          ja

 

Exactly. Thin or small pieces tend to crack when you put a pin through them.


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#17 perkolator

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 01:52 PM

i've had good luck with the bailey IFB stuff.  just make sure both surfaces are free if anything loose or brick dust, etc, then wet it well with spray bottle before applying. when i apply, I like to first put on a coat of watered down cement, which i feel helps get into those pockets without overuse of the cement. in divots where the chunk disintegrates i like to grind up some IFB and mix it with the repair cement and use that as the patch (i guess it's similar to the soaked fiber repair).  be careful though, i've found there IS a limit to how thick you can apply cement before it makes things worse when fired (due to expansion/shrinkage)

 

they work decent, but the problem i found with buying all those commercially made mortars/cements is that because i don't use it very often it likes to cure in the jar and become useless after you open it up.

anyone have a recipe to make your own?






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