I Want To Wind My Own Kiln Wire For A Scutt 2327 And Olympic 2327

[SmokerX]

Since you`re a mod I assume you can post links here. Not trying to sell anything. Here's some specs. on my situation. My kiln is a paragon firefly 120 volts listed as 1300Watts 11 amps. The infinite switch is rated as 120 volts 15 amps with 2 heating elements wired to it in series. other than that there's not much going on with this kiln.

Here's the generic fleabay link for chinese elements. Not alot to go by except volts and watts. However I'm thinking 220 Volts may not be a critical number since Amps X Volts = watts. Also the max temp. is always listed as 1000* C on these listings. Considering the way  we're using these wires is converting current into heat that's the temp. the wire melts so it's somewhat suggestive to me that there is no variability in whatever gauge wire they're shipping out.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kiln-Furnace-heating-element-Resistance-wire-220V-1500W/361930960285?hash=item5444c42d9d:g:o0oAAMXQS6pRsLZD

(Edit: I've measured the gauge of the OEM element wires on a paragon Firefly and it is 14 gauge)

(Edit: I've measured the links of the heating elements and it's 35 inches per coil. So 1 of the coils below should be spec'd to be able to wire both elements. That pushes the economics even lower to 12X replacement levels on the chinesium and balances the ohms ratings between what the kiln lists and the specs.)

the proper replacement element is firefly element EL9221161S 4.6 ohms. 2 elements per kiln. Searching that element there's not alot of info such as gauge. Looking at a site that sells generic heating elements in several common electrical configurations ( We only use Kanthal Sandvik A1 alloy wire. We do not use cheaper imported wires that claim to have similar properties but often fall short ) Probably important to also mention this supplier can get me 2 elements to the closest configuration at $50 but refuse to disclose shipping cost until payment is processed. That's a red flag to walk away for me.  But the closest configuration specs seems to be:

voltage (AC)	Wattage	Amperage	B&S Gauge	Ohms	Outside Diameter	Element Surface Load	Unstretched Length	Min. Stretched Length	Max. Stretched Length
120	1440	12	14	10	.4570"	12.8 W/Sq. In.	30"	60"	120"

[liambesaw]

41 minutes ago, SmokerX said:

Since you`re a mod I assume you can post links here. Not trying to sell anything. Here's some specs. on my situation. My kiln is a paragon firefly 120 volts listed as 1300Watts 11 amps. The infinite switch is rated as 120 volts 15 amps with 2 heating elements wired to it in series. other than that there's not much going on with this kiln.

Here's the generic fleabay link for chinese elements. Not alot to go by except volts and watts. However I'm thinking 220 Volts may not be a critical number since Amps X Volts = watts. Also the max temp. is always listed as 1000* C on these listings. Considering the way  we're using these wires is converting current into heat that's the temp. the wire melts so it's somewhat suggestive to me that there is no variability in whatever gauge wire they're shipping out.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kiln-Furnace-heating-element-Resistance-wire-220V-1500W/361930960285?hash=item5444c42d9d:g:o0oAAMXQS6pRsLZD

the proper replacement element is firefly element EL9221161S 4.6 ohms. 2 elements per kiln. Searching that element there's not alot of info such as gauge. Looking at a site that sells generic heating elements in several common electrical configurations ( We only use Kanthal Sandvik A1 alloy wire. We do not use cheaper imported wires that claim to have similar properties but often fall short ) Probably important to also mention this supplier can get me 2 elements to the closest configuration at $50 but refuse to disclose shipping cost until payment is processed. That's a red flag to walk away for me.  But the closest configuration specs seems to be:

voltage (AC)	Wattage	Amperage	B&S Gauge	Ohms	Outside Diameter	Element Surface Load	Unstretched Length	Min. Stretched Length	Max. Stretched Length
120	1440	12	14	10	.4570"	12.8 W/Sq. In.	30"	60"	120"

So judging from some other Chinese listings for similar elements the 2 dollar one is 15 inches long.  Looks like you'd need the 3000 watt version which is closer to 30 inches.

My thoughts are that if your kiln needs a 1440 watts at 30 unstretched inches, you'll either need thicker gauge wire or you'll have to stretch the Chinese wire to twice it's length.  A 10 inch kiln will use 30 inches of coil for every revolution.  I've never heard of a 10 inch kiln, but apparently they're available somewhere since there's been a bunch of those elements sold on eBay.

[neilestrick]

The shipping cost for the $2 element appears to be $30.

Shipping Terms:

1. Deliver to worldwide by SpeedPak,Winit and China post.

For order ＜ USD30.0

China Post Air Mail Economy Shipping, Parcel just can be tracked in China.

Option: Pay USD3.0 extra for China Post Registered Air Mail with tracking No.

For order ≥ USD30.0

I'm not seeing where it says the length of that element. Nor does it say wire gauge, and that fact that it's only rated to 1000C means it's cheap crap.

If there was some fabulous super cheap way to buy good elements we'd all be doing it. You can usually save a few bucks from Euclids, but it's not going to be a lot. Anything that is considerably cheaper is going to be lower quality or more likely total junk.

[SmokerX]

I think Im on the same listing as you, liambesaw, for the 30 inch. I think it's possible this spec. is the length of the coil, not the min./max. stretch length. This one gives me more to deduce. One, the listing does mention material as FeCrAl. Which is consistent alloy to kanthal. Just iron and aluminum wire with chrome to reduce oxidation and corrosion to increase the service life of the heating element. Two, The max. temp to blowout dropped to 600*C on the 30 inch model(I`m assuming the chinese models are not changing wire gauge). Since the firefly max. temp is 2350F or 1287C kiln room temp. Higher than even the max temp. of 1000℃ of the other ebay listings. Looking at kanthal wire properties the 11 and 14 gauge are both listed as a melting point of 1500C. Possibly the ebay stuff is a lower quality alloy of FeCrAl then kanthal A1. Lowest quality of FeCrAl alloys, Nikrothal 20 has a similar melting point of 1050C. to the listed max. temp.

I also found a product dimensions on a firefly direct replacement of 5 1/2 inches long. Meant to stretch to the length of 35 inches to fit the kiln. That's about 6X it's shipped length. If that's a constant and correct. It means the 30inch ebay model might stretch to 180 inches.

Looks like the claims of "cheaper imported wire that often falls short" is probably correct here unless you're firing at temps around 1100F is my guess. My plans are to send this to cone 10. For $2 I might still watch this melt.

[liambesaw]

9 minutes ago, SmokerX said:

I think Im on the same listing as you, liambesaw, for the 30 inch. I think it's possible this spec. is the length of the coil, not the min./max. stretch length. This one gives me more to deduce. One, the listing does mention material as FeCrAl. Which is consistent alloy to kanthal. Just iron and aluminum wire with chrome to reduce oxidation and corrosion to increase the service life of the heating element. Two, The max. temp to blowout dropped to 600*C on the 30 inch model(I`m assuming the chinese models are not changing wire gauge). Since the firefly max. temp is 2350F or 1287C kiln room temp. Higher than even the max temp. of 1000℃ of the other ebay listings. Looking at kanthal wire properties the 11 and 14 gauge are both listed as a melting point of 1500C. Possibly the ebay stuff is a lower quality alloy of FeCrAl then kanthal A1. Lowest quality of FeCrAl alloys, Nikrothal 20 has a similar melting point of 1050C. to the listed max. temp.

I also found a product dimensions on a firefly direct replacement of 5 1/2 inches long. Meant to stretch to the length of 35 inches to fit the kiln. That's about 6X it's shipped length. If that's a constant and correct. It means the 30inch ebay model might stretch to 180 inches.

Looks like the claims of "cheaper imported wire that often falls short" is probably correct here unless you're firing at temps around 1100F is my guess. My plans are to send this to cone 10. For $2 I might still watch this melt.

Oh, your stats you showed above for your current element was 30 inches unstretched so that's what I was going off of.  30 inch stretched would almost fit a 10 inch diameter round kiln.  Yours is a 8x4.5 inch cube kiln, I didn't know we were talking about such a little feller.  Those would need something like 36 inch elements when accounting for being recessed an inch. So maybe get the 15 incher and just stretch it to 36 and it's golden (although still not rated for kiln temps)

[SmokerX]

Thanks for pointing that out liambesaw. Haven't caught that so far. That would put 1 coil at 15 inches. Thus the 5 1/2 inch spec. is incorrect and product dimensions is because they coiled it X3 I guess.

https://www.cooltools.us/Firefly-Heating-Element-p/kln-405.htm

I'm getting free shipping on my end neilestrick, but the likelyhood the alloy is inferior seems high now. I think this alloy will go full melt down sitting in the bottom of my kiln running cone 10 much less trying to be the source of heat. I think I've found the error of my ways here and it's back to factoring winding coils over buying them. Not a complete waste of time since I've worked out alot of these specs.

[SmokerX]

I`m back at it and rethinking the alloy. I found a chinese supplier, that's not Ebay that lists the supposed alloy as 0Cr25Al5.

https://www.itumdkgoods.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=322520

http://www.dlx-alloy.com/ProductView.Asp?ID=1541

Going over this alloy manufacturer I find no alloy with a "max. temp" (I assume melt down temp) as low as the ebay listed 1000℃. Also interesting is the link I tracked down the supposed alloy also lists max temp. as 1000C. However the table I linked above, the alloys melt temp. is listed as 1500 consistent with the specs. of kanthal A1. It is possible the 1000*C rating is incorrect since that rating is taken from a group similar to a mall worker. It is possible they deal with hundreds of products and are unsure of the true specs. and just wrote something there below any real world spec. Another ebay lists the alloy as 0Cr21Al4. But checking the alloy chart, the melt down temp. is still 1500.

Based on earlier size chart I assume unstretched to min. stretch is 1 to 2. So if a 3000W is listed as 570mm it would stretch to a min. stretch length of 44 inches. Below the needed 70 inches of 2 elements of a paragon firefly. 3000W / 120 volts = 25 amps. There's probably something in that math but I can't figure out what that is besides its double the amps of the drop in specs. for a firefly, while simultaneously being below its unstretched length. It's possible they're manufacturing out of various gauges and alloys over there, Usually unlisted variables.

Looking around I see kanthal 14 gauge by the foot with options of "would you like to wind that into a coil" with no additional fee, but not there yet on breaking down ohms law to figure out how many feet are needed to see if this is cost efficient. My guess is no. I think as soon as I hear the words specialty pottery supplier they think you have time therefore must have money and give it to them. Looking over insulated firebricks at $4.40 per brick when I surmise my Chinese counterpart can source that brick for .60 to .70 cents, I think its no wonder the majority of ceramics manufacturing took a walk. How are they able to beat the prices this hard? I assume they are mining their own mullite or something and achieved a complete state of self sufficiency.

[liambesaw]

28 minutes ago, SmokerX said:

I`m back at it and rethinking the alloy. I found a chinese supplier, that's not Ebay that lists the supposed alloy as 0Cr25Al5.

https://www.itumdkgoods.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=322520

http://www.dlx-alloy.com/ProductView.Asp?ID=1541

Going over this alloy manufacturer I find no alloy with a "max. temp" (I assume melt down temp) as low as the ebay listed 1000℃. Also interesting is the link I tracked down the supposed alloy also lists max temp. as 1000C. However the table I linked above, the alloys melt temp. is listed as 1500 consistent with the specs. of kanthal A1. It is possible the 1000*C rating is incorrect since that rating is taken from a group similar to a mall worker. It is possible they deal with hundreds of products and are unsure of the true specs. and just wrote something there below any real world spec. Another ebay lists the alloy as 0Cr21Al4. But checking the alloy chart, the melt down temp. is still 1500.

Based on earlier size chart I assume unstretched to min. stretch is 1 to 2. So if a 3000W is listed as 570mm it would stretch to a min. stretch length of 44 inches. Below the needed 70 inches of 2 elements of a paragon firefly. 3000W / 120 volts = 25 amps. There's probably something in that math but I can't figure out what that is besides its double the amps of the drop in specs. for a firefly, while simultaneously being below its unstretched length. It's possible they're manufacturing out of various gauges and alloys over there, Usually unlisted variables.

Looking around I see kanthal 14 gauge by the foot with options of "would you like to wind that into a coil" with no additional fee, but not there yet on breaking down ohms law to figure out how many feet are needed to see if this is cost efficient. My guess is no. I think as soon as I hear the words specialty pottery supplier they think you have time therefore must have money and give it to them. Looking over insulated firebricks at $4.40 per brick when I surmise my Chinese counterpart can source that brick for .60 to .70 cents, I think its no wonder the majority of ceramics manufacturing took a walk. How are they able to beat the prices this hard? I assume they are mining their own mullite or something and achieved a complete state of self sufficiency.

How are they able to beat the prices is indentured servitude which is still a popular practice in china.  You work for a factory, you rent your apartment from the factory, you buy your meals from the factory, etc.  It isn't good, but what can you do? Everything comes from china.  With labor being the traditionally most expensive part of any product, we can cut the price down significantly.  But then other countries caught on and it was a race to the bottom.  Now with the labor cost advantage gone, move on to the next most expensive part of the process which is materials.  If we can cut corners by even a slight bit, we can still have an edge over the next lowest competition.  So maybe in an alloy instead of 15% aluminum (expensive as a raw material due to the energy required to smelt it), maybe we use 12%, and hey look, the look is the same, the performance is only off by a percent, maybe we can even get away with a lower grade of aluminum!  Recycled even.  And maybe we can squeeze that wire a little thinner and lose the top 10% of durability, after all a consumer will just buy a new one by the time this one fails.

So now that we have taken care of the two big costs in manufacturing, what else can we do?  Well, we can temporarily keep our people poor and instead of using currency for things like energy and public works, we can provide those as basic needs, and reduce the need for our people to use currency for things.  This will keep the prices lower than any other country!  We can dominate for as long as our people can handle it.

I mean that's a condensed version, but the short and sweet of it is that in exchange for human suffering, we can buy things for cheaper.  It has always happened and always will happen, with the sufferers changing periodically depending on who has the most money.

 

As far as the wires are concerned, if they are kanthal alloy, it's a violation of international trade law to import them, if they're not, they won't perform as well.  From what I've seen of Chinese kilns themselves, they tend to use silicon nitride bar elements.

[SmokerX]

Are we sure the kanthal alloy patents are not expired? is it a violation of trade law to claim a kanthal alloy and ship a Nichrome wire(has a similar melt temp to 1000C, not superior since melt temp is too low) has kanthal manufacture took a walk overseas? I`m starting to assume what you would be getting is 7 gauge(beyond alloy) and good luck twisting a pig tail on that or making it work in a 14 gauge application. Silicon nitride for bar elements or porous insulated fire brick seems a bit overkill for a cone 10. I`m attempting an Aluminum oxide ceramic for insulated firebrick, a step below Silicon Nitride. In my mind a Silicon Nitride unit would be like a rolls royce vs. a honda.

Chinese average Hourly hit $3.60. Assuming  they can in fact source bricks at .70 then that's 5 bricks an hour, vs. around 2 US bricks an hour at $4.40, if we''re just looking at who is empowered through insulated brick buying power. Also it's probably more difficult to source them is my guess within the US since there's a lower demand for the firebrick due to lower supply of manufacturers to utilize them. Beyond labor costs, I assume who controls the resources to manufacture anything is also a factor and how much profits they are looking for out of the resources they control.