Underglazes and stains: Do they play nice together?

[Steve Hoffman]

I have a bisque fired piece textured intentionally to be rough and knarly. I want it to look distressed.  No shiny glazes. Think of alligatored paint flaking off a weathered board.  I'm experimenting with test tiles of the same texture. If I apply a dark stain for the base color, can I dry brush a matt underglaze over that? Is there any reason they wouldn't play nice together? Are there types of materials that should not be combined this way (for example, should I avoid stain A and underglaze B because a nuclear explosion might result)? Does the stain have to dry for a minimum period before overcoating with the underglaze? I am open to ugly final finishes because this piece is supposed to look worn out and threadbare. But the final product has to be intentional so I can control it on the next piece. Any thoughts?

[Min]

Commercial stains usually need some sort of flux to help them stick to the clay during firing. Are you looking for a transparent colour or opaque? Wondering if a slip or engobe might be more effective for your purposes. Re stain / underglaze / matte glaze combinations, too many variables to say for sure what will happen. Example would be an iron oxide wash / stain will get bleached out with a glaze high in calcium or a stain containing chrome will likely be very dry, etc. No nuclear explosions but test tiles are worth testing all your combinations on. If you want a look of flakey paint have a look at some  crawl or reticulated glazes overtop of underglazes. 

If you could post a picture of what you are striving for we might be able to give more concise suggestions. Also what cone you are firing to plus what kind of firing. (electric?)

Welcome to the forum.

[Steve Hoffman]

Thank you for your quick reply. I'm brand new to ceramics and don't know from glazes. On a past project, an experienced ceramist had mixed up some brown stain that worked well for that piece and I thought it might be a good base for this one. She advised that I only had to mix with water. Perhaps I'm not investigating the correct stains here. However, I like your suggestion of using crawl glazes. That might do the trick. I will look into that option.

[Steve Hoffman]

PS: I'm told we fire at cone 5/6.

[PeterH]

terminological confusion?

6 minutes ago, Steve Hoffman said:

On a past project, an experienced ceramist had mixed up some brown stain that worked well for that piece and I thought it might be a good base for this one. She advised that I only had to mix with water.

I think there is some terminological confusion here.

When potters talk about stains they usually mean things like mason stains, which can be described as:
Stains are dry powders made by firing selected oxides proportioned to produce stable crystals of consistent colour resistant to high temperatures and glaze attack. Ceramic stains are used to create coloured glazes, underglazes, and clays & slips.https://psh.ca/pages/mason-crysanthos-ceramic-glaze-stains
(IMHO  pigment would have been a much better choice of term, and seems to be what's used when describing paints or inks.)

What you are referring to as a stain sounds more like an underglaze in potter-speak (or possibly a slip or an engobe).
Underglazes are used in pottery to create designs and patterns that come up through the glaze covering them. This can give the surface more visual depth and character. Although they are often used under clear glazes, they can also be used under other, generally light-colored, transparent glazes. https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/what-are-underglazes-2746191

I'm definitely not saying your terminology is "wrong" in any sense. Just when talking about anything it minimizes confuse if we all use the same terminology.

BTW I've used fairly random definitions plucked from the net, just to give an idea of their usage.

@Min's suggestion that you post a picture of something close to what you are aiming for is a very good one, and the responses to it will help establish the the right pottery terminology (and products to use). 

PS A random selection of pictures of the craw glazes she mentioned at  https://tinyurl.com/2865ec3z
Ditto for reticulated glazes at https://tinyurl.com/yck9hmue
... but be warned some of them are difficult/antisocial to use/control (I remember one was described as "spits like an an orangutan in the kiln")

[oldlady]

color, whether it is called a stain or pigment, combined with only water is a "wash".    using a wash under any other ceramic material should not have any effect on the results except color that is different from the base clay.   i use slip that has been colored with a mason stain or an oxide or carbonate.  the only difference between my slip and your wash is that i am using the clay body that is the actual clay underneath it all.    slip is only very, very wet clay, a liquid rather than a solid.   there are lots of "recipes" combining clays to make "slip".   since i work with white clay i use it to make my simple slip.

i mix bits of dry, broken trimmings and other discards from making something out of my white clay and a blue stain.   so now i have a clay that is white and a blue stain in the same white clay that is very wet.   the difference with the slip or wash is that i have mixed the exact clay with the color whereas you have left out clay in your wash.   when they dry, the color is imbedded in the clay.  the slip only adds a very thin layer of more clay so there is no problem with peeling off or any other result other than color.   

testing and measuring accurately allows you to repeat a color you like.   keep good notes and also note which slip or wash works well with each glaze you use.     bookkeeping?   ugh!