Manual Kilnsetter Skutt 231-18 Conversion to Bartlett Genesis Digital Controller with Solid State Realys

[Dana Stripe]

Uploading here for anyone that's interested in installing a Bartlett Genesis Controller on an older manual kiln.

Due to file size limitations complete file can be found here

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1p6gW0n2eRcdhVYPq22rkSBLLjY2uM7yq/view?usp=sharing

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Dana Stripe
Add all the slides

[starrs_ridge]

Dana,

This is an amazing document - and perfect timing for me, as I am just undertaking a similar project for a 3-zone, older Jupiter kiln.

Question: I have ordered a different center tap transformer (a Signal DP-241-5-24, as opposed to your DP-241-6-24). I was going off of specs which were provided to me on the other post where you replied to me. Any reason for the DP-241-6-24? 

Thanks again!

[Dana Stripe]

Starrs_ridge

If you take a look at slide 12 I needed about 1.1A to drive everything so I needed a bigger transformer DP-241-6-24 is 1.25A, the DP-241-5-24 is only 0.5A.  The biggest difference is that I have two fans to power to keep everything cool.  When I talked to the tech at Bartlett he highly recommended fans in the design to keep the SSR and the controller cool.  Also, a common issue I have seen in many forums with controller driven kilns is that its common for the controllers to overheat and will abort the firing cycle so I thought it was a good idea to have them in the dsign.

more info on the differences follow this link

https://belfuse.com/resources/datasheets/signaltransformer/ds-st-241-series.pdf

 

 

[neilestrick]

@Dana Stripe Welcome to the forum! Thank you for sharing your build. It's a nice setup, excellent craftsmanship!

On 8/28/2022 at 7:52 PM, Dana Stripe said:

Also, a common issue I have seen in many forums with controller driven kilns is that its common for the controllers to overheat and will abort the firing cycle so I thought it was a good idea to have them in the dsign.

This tends to happens when the kiln room is not adequately vented. In a properly vented room it should never happen. In the case of your setup, the fans are a great way to go because you don't have a layer of insulation between the kiln and the box from what I can see (the standoff will help though). I've got an SSR panel that sits next to the kiln (L&L DaVinci panel), and I'm amazed at how hot the surface facing the kiln gets even though it's 18" away. With a single fan in the bottom of the box (which is about 4 times the size of yours) the controller never gets above 105F. I've also got a little controller box with a single SSR that I use for my baby kiln, but because it's wall mounted I just put a heat sink on the box, no fan.

        

[Dana Stripe]

Neil,

Thank you for the response, your correct I do not have any insulation in the design.  However, I have put a sheet of aluminum within the air gap between the box and the kiln to function as a heat shield.  It works pretty effectively, the output report states the controller only gets up to about 109F.   I wanted to post it here as I could not find a lot of information on how to convert a older kiln.  I put  a fair bit of time in developing the design and hopefully it can help others.

You have a nice set up there also, you build either of those?  

Edited September 1, 2022 by Dana Stripe

[Bill Kielb]

8 hours ago, Dana Stripe said:

It works pretty effectively, the output report states the controller only gets up to about 109F. 

Stand-off mounts an old tried and true solution, which way is the fan airflow? Nice tight installation!

Edited September 1, 2022 by Bill Kielb

[neilestrick]

11 hours ago, Dana Stripe said:

You have a nice set up there also, you build either of those?  

Thanks! I built both of them. The big box came from an L&L DaVinci I had before the current eQuad 2827. I gutted it and rebuilt it as a 3 zone SSR system.  The little box was from an old Orton wall mount system. I changed out the controller and added the SSR system. My primary reason for the SSR's is to see how long it extends element life. There is a lot of documentation saying that element life is better with SSR's, but I have yet to find anything that says how much better. 5%? 10%? More? The bad thing is that it'll take another year or two of firings before I'll know!

[Bill Kielb]

1 hour ago, neilestrick said:

that says how much better. 5%? 10%? More? The bad thing is that it'll take another year or two of firings before I'll know!

I would love to know your experience with the longevity. Something that it should do but really hard to speculate and quantify.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Bill Kielb

[Dana Stripe]

On 9/1/2022 at 12:07 PM, Bill Kielb said:

I would love to know your experience with the longevity. Something that it should do but really hard to speculate and quantify.

Any additional life out of the elements is an extra bonus but SSR life will vastly out live any mechanical relay and it allows for much better temperature control.  The relay cycle time is almost instantaneous vs a 10-60 second cycle time for a mechanical relay.  Of course the shorter the cycle time the better the temperature control but shorter your mechanical relay life.  

[Bill Kielb]

2 hours ago, Dana Stripe said:

Any additional life out of the elements is an extra bonus

Thanks! Just trying to understand the potential element life though. Hard to quantify or anticipate. For some context https://youtu.be/AvdPwKuj6rM

 

[neilestrick]

On 9/5/2022 at 9:08 AM, Dana Stripe said:

and it allows for much better temperature control. 

To some degree, but not as much as you would expect. In a typical firing it's really negligible. On the Genesis you can download firing data that has a data sample every 30 seconds. I've looked at both SSR and mechanical relay firings on my kilns and while the SSR firings tend to follow the traveling set point almost exactly, rarely deviating and never more than 1 degree, the mechanical relays tend to stay within 3-4 degrees, which is plenty tight for your typical pottery firing. I've also checked firing costs on both, and it only fluctuates by a few cents. If temperature control was a real issue with the mechanical relays, I would expect to see the kiln working harder to keep up with the set point and also working harder to maintain evenness. But the firing cost doesn't show any significant difference. That said, those were in typical firings. If you were doing firings that required greater control, like say crystalline glaze schedules which have lots of holds and ups and downs, I would expect the tighter control of the SSR to be able to respond and make those changes more quickly and efficiently.

On 9/5/2022 at 9:08 AM, Dana Stripe said:

SSR life will vastly out live any mechanical relay

This is definitely worth it if you build your own system. If you're paying for the upgrade from the factory you have to math out the cost benefit.  If you use the kiln a lot and take care of it, you can get 2000 firings out of a kiln, which means about 10 relay changes over the lifespan. If you get your relays online you'll pay about $20 per relay with shipping, so the total cost comes out to about $600 over the life of the kiln. So if the SSR upgrade cost is less than that then you're coming out ahead. Factor in time spent on repairs and it's even better, although it only takes about 5 minutes to change out the relays. If you're a casual kiln user who's only going to do 500 firings over 20 years, an SSR upgrade probably won't pay off. You could just replace the mechanical relays every 150 firings and never really worry about them failing.

Above all else, the SSR system is REALLY COOL and everyone should have one.