Paragon Kiln Error 1 despite all changes

[Ronan]

Hi everybody!

I started a discussion about an “error 1” on a Paragon Kiln: 

 

I have replaced:

1- 3 elements out of 4 (the last one has correct Ohm range)

2- both relays

3- the transformer

I redid all connections, check everything amd it seemed OK.

When I fired it yesterday, I again got ERR1

It happend at 1743F after 5 hours.

It seems that we can increase the « temperature lag » which is I think the reason for the error, but I can’t find out on the DTC 600C.

What is weirder is that after cancelling the error, I restarted the kiln right away and if finally did ramped up up to 2280F…!

Can anyone help?? I’m desperate!

 

 

[neilestrick]

@Ronan How's the thermocouple? Could be a crack in the weld, or a loos connection somewhere along the line. Sometimes the wire breaks under the screw on the block and you can't tell unless you tug on the wire.

What firing schedule are you using?

[Ronan]

Hi!

thks for responding.

i’m using cone 6, medium speed.

i checked the thermocouple with a voltmeter and it seemed good. Checked connexions, they seem good too

i timelapsed the firing and it goes well untill 1750F. Then it goes up very slow and around 1780 goes even slower (1degree every 5/8minutes), then puts error 1 (temperature increase less than 18F/hour).

if you think this is the thermocouple, I can change it.

thanks!

[Bill Kielb]

5 hours ago, Ronan said:

i checked the thermocouple with a voltmeter and it seemed good. Checked connexions, they seem good too

 

Your original description says not enough power, but your restart and success suggests an intermittent issue such as a relay or possibly thermocouple and inaccurate reading.

I am curious, what did the thermocouple measure in millivolts at what temperature and what do the element resistances measure to the tenth of an ohm each? Your kiln  needs enough energy to go about 1-2 degrees per minute at the end to produce decent glaze finishes.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Bill Kielb

[Ronan]

Hi Bill,

I’ll do additional tests and let you know the values tomorrow (saturday). I’ll check the thermocouple voltage at 100, 200, 300 and 400F, is it enough or should I provide additional measures?

Thanks!

[Bill Kielb]

18 minutes ago, Ronan said:

I’ll do additional tests and let you know the values tomorrow (saturday). I’ll check the thermocouple voltage at 100, 200, 300 and 400F, is it enough or should I provide additional measures?

I think I would be happy if you said you checked it at whatever temperature it failed at and compared it with a chart at that time. Else absent that, hook up your voltmeter set to millivolts and heat the thermocouple with a propane torch.  You probably can drive it to 1400 - 1800 degrees  just to be sure it’s reasonably accurate. One of many available charts here: https://www.pyromation.com/downloads/data/emfk_f.pdf 

likely gonna be 30 millivolts (.03 volts) or in that range for 1400 degrees f or so.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Bill Kielb

[Bill Kielb]

An interesting note from your voltage drop readings of previous post: you have 4 elements 1-2, 3-4 - top group (series wired),  5-6, 7-8 - bottom group (series wired). When measuring the resistance of these, (All power disconnected and turned off) if connected to two separate relays then you should be able to just measure them as 1-4=? (element 1), 2-4 =? ( element 2), 3-4 =? (element 3), 4-5=? (element 4). Else if all driven by a single relay then disconnect at least one of the line wires at the element group before measuring the resistance.

Anyway, your previous post  has some one volt differences even though the only change is measuring the element voltage drop ( 3-4) or measuring the element voltage drop through a jumper (2-4). It’s really hard to repeat voltage readings and maintain good contact. Best to shut down the power and write down carefully made resistance measurements.

Additionally If you post the model number and kiln plate info, that would help as well.

[Ronan]

Hi Bill and all,

 

sorry for the long response, I was eaiting for the new thermostat to respond, which I installed yesterday…

so far, I’ve replaced by new:

- all 4 elements

- both relays

- the transformer

- the thermostat

And I still haver Error 1!!

 

here are the elements Ohm readings:

- element 1 (top): 10.3 Ohms

- element 2 (top middle): 6 Ohms

- element 3 (bottom middle): 6 Ohms

- element 4 (bottom): 10.3 Ohms

And considering top connection is 1 and bottom connection is 8, I have:

- between 1 and 4: 16.7 Ohms

- between 5 and 8: 16.8 Ohms.

 

also attached is a picture of the kiln plate.

 

The only thing I haven’t changed is the DTC 600C controller and the wires.

i also did a time laps to see how the temperature changes and it increase up to 1,200 with sometime a few drop. Then it is more erratic, between 1,200 and 1,500 and there, it comes a bit crazy cjanging (every 5 seconds) as follow for example: 1551 - 1558 - 1616 - 1798 - 1803 - 1854 - 1920 - 1946 - 2004 - 1946 - 1920 - 1806. Etc.

can share the video if you want to see.

Any thoughts?

 

 

[neilestrick]

16 minutes ago, Ronan said:

i also did a time laps to see how the temperature changes and it increase up to 1,200 with sometime a few drop. Then it is more erratic, between 1,200 and 1,500 and there, it comes a bit crazy cjanging (every 5 seconds) as follow for example: 1551 - 1558 - 1616 - 1798 - 1803 - 1854 - 1920 - 1946 - 2004 - 1946 - 1920 - 1806. Etc.

Those numbers are every 5 seconds? Probably a thermocouple problem. Since you already changes the thermocouple, it could be the wire itself, could be the connection of the thermocouple wire to the board, could be the terminal that's mounted to the board is loose. I'd try grounding the thermocouple first. If that doesn't work, try replacing the thermocouple wire itself. Make sure you use type K wire.

[glazenerd]

Have 4 Paragons, and hit this issue on 3. The wires from the thermocouple to the block are constricted in a narrow channel, typically less than 1/16th separates them. The heat caused enough expansion that caused the wires to touch. Ended up putting a small piece of fiber insulation between them, after I separated them (very carefully). 

Tom

[Ronan]

So I purchase the recommended thermocouple type K (PY-50), which comes with a new wire and made sure they were well secured on the board.

 

from the inside, there is a ceramic protection. From the outside, it looks like this.

 

 

[Bill Kielb]

Just curious, did you cut the tails off the thermocouple so they cannot touch each other or anything else after inserting into the protection tube. The thermocouple should be embedded deep enough to touch the end of the protection tube, then trim the tails to a reasonable length - maybe  1/2” so they cannot touch each other or anything metal.

[neilestrick]

That type of thermocouple is already in a metal sheath, so the ceramic tube is not necessary. I don't think it would be the cause the fluttery reading, but remove it just to be sure. Pack fiber around the thermocouple to fill the hole.

[Ronan]

Hi Bill,

If refering to the tail on the ceramirc bloc, yes. You can see on the picture that they don’t touch anything.

 

Hi Neilstrick,

I removed the ceramic tube and did a firing. Still have Error 1 :-/

 

 

[neilestrick]

At what temp are you getting the Error, and what firing program are you using?

[Bill Kielb]

One other notice, if you have addressed already then disregard. That  thermocouple was relocated upward several inches. It probably would be good to confirm the hole in the stainless shell was drilled with enough clearance so it did not touch the metal, especially as the kiln heats up. Just a thought looking at your pictures.

[Ronan]

Thanks both!

in the latest firing, I had a Fail error, which Paragon told me the Board might be dead. I’ll then replace it and hope that it actually was rhe issue (since I’ll have replaced everything but the cables between the elements and the relays/transfo!).

[RobS]

Greetings.

This may seem a bit simplistic, but in the last picture you posted the brown and black leads in the middle of the block coming from the thermocouple sure look they are not stripped.  I'd guess you torqued them down and have marginally intermittent connection where the screw cut through the wire's jacket.  Maybe it's the angle of the picture but it should be nothing but metal to metal contact at the bottom of that screw.  Just something easy to check that nobody brought up.  Good luck.

[DougH]

@Ronan did you ever find out what the issue was? I think I’m having the same issue and I’ve replaced almost everything except the board. Just curious if that did actually fix it.