neilestrick Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 Neil, thanks much. I don't mean to hijack Jolie's thread, but I have a manual Olympic 2327h that I would like to automate. The NEMA plug is 14-50p on my kiln and the Rampmaster shows a 6-50 configuration for that amperage range. Can you get that controller with a different configuration? 3 phase? I'm sure they can make one with any plug configuration. Call Clay-King and have them order one for you, so you can get their discounted price. Otherwise you'll have to go directly to Evenheat, who may or may not give you the discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayaldridge Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 Thanks, Neil. It's not 3 phase. It has two hot wires, plus a ground and a neutral. Currently the outlet in the kiln room is wired into a 60 amp breaker-- the kiln is rated at 45 amps. As I understand it, the NEMA 14-50 is used often for ranges (and also for RV hookups.) I'll get into contact with Clay King next week and see what they say. I really appreciate the help. It's a nice kiln but it would be a lot nicer with a programmable controller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Bridge Pottery Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 Does that count as a two phase? I did see when I was looking at the wiring diagram that it had two hot legs and it confused me a little as to how the power runs through the elements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Does that count as a two phase? I did see when I was looking at the wiring diagram that it had two hot legs and it confused me a little as to how the power runs through the elements. It's single phase. Most kilns don't use a neutral, though, they just run the two hots and a ground on 240/208 volt service. If the neutral isn't actually being used, then the plug could be replaced with a NEMA 6-50. It depends on how its wired up inside the kiln. It's also possible someone put that plug on there to match an outlet they had. I've seen that many times. When a neutral is not used, the elements run on 240/208 volt power, with both hots going to every group of elements. When the neutral is used the two hots are separate and the elements run on 110/120 volt power, with one of the two hots and the neutral going to a group of elements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Thanks, Neil. It's not 3 phase. It has two hot wires, plus a ground and a neutral. Currently the outlet in the kiln room is wired into a 60 amp breaker-- the kiln is rated at 45 amps. As I understand it, the NEMA 14-50 is used often for ranges (and also for RV hookups.) I'll get into contact with Clay King next week and see what they say. I really appreciate the help. It's a nice kiln but it would be a lot nicer with a programmable controller. Is that the original plug? Call Olympic and find out. You may be able to swap out the plug, which would be easier than doing a special order for the control box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayaldridge Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Neil, this is highly embarassing to admit, but I got confused and thought the Olympic had the 14-50 plug, when it was actually an old Paragon sitting next to it. The Olympic has a 6-50 plug, now that I actually look at it. Embarassment aside, let me ask you something else. I also have that a-66 Paragon that I'm using as a test kiln. If I were to buy the 50 amp Rampmaster II, could I also use it for the smaller kiln, if I replaced the smaller kiln's plug with a 6-50 plug? If so, I could move the thermocouple and plug from one to the other and still get identical firing cycles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Bridge Pottery Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 So what is the difference between having 'two hots' or a live and neutral. Surely the neutral is a hot wire. What is the difference I am missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 I also have that a-66 Paragon that I'm using as a test kiln. If I were to buy the 50 amp Rampmaster II, could I also use it for the smaller kiln, if I replaced the smaller kiln's plug with a 6-50 plug? If so, I could move the thermocouple and plug from one to the other and still get identical firing cycles. Technically yes, it would work, but from a safety standpoint you shouldn't do it. The 50 amp controller box is going to be plugged into your wall outlet, which goes to a 60 amp breaker. If you plug your little A-66 into that system, you'll have a 15 amp kiln on a 60 amp breaker, which is not safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 So what is the difference between having 'two hots' or a live and neutral. Surely the neutral is a hot wire. What is the difference I am missing? Hot refers to power coming in. A 240 volt system has two 120V lines coming in, used at the same time. Both are live whether the circuit is active or not. A neutral is not a hot, it completes the circuit for a 120 volt line. Yes, it has power going through it, but not coming in from the source. It's only got power through it when the circuit is active. The difference in the examples I posted above it that some systems have the elements running on 240 volts, others have them running on 120 volts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Bridge Pottery Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 So there are 4 wires going in and out of the kiln? Or is there two lives and one neutral? Is it different in England because most supplies are 240v? Here we have a live, neutral and earth for 240v. Then there is three phase which is 430v~ or close to that with three lives and neutral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayaldridge Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Technically yes, it would work, but from a safety standpoint you shouldn't do it. The 50 amp controller box is going to be plugged into your wall outlet, which goes to a 60 amp breaker. If you plug your little A-66 into that system, you'll have a 15 amp kiln on a 60 amp breaker, which is not safe. That makes sense, alas. Okay, what about using a PID controller and a solid state relay for the little kiln? The simple ones are quite cheap... I could get a PID, a relay, and a thermocouple for about 60 bucks. That wouldn't be nearly as nice as the Rampmaster, but at least I could control the cooling a lot better than I can now. Now it's fairly ridiculous, with my one 3-position switch. It involves a lot of switching between high and medium once the kiln cools into the crystallization range. An auxiliary and possibly dumb question I've always wondered about: are those relay powered elements subject to more wear or stress due to the rapid off-and-on at some points? I generally leave the A-66 on low for a long dry-out cycle, and the buzzing has always worried me a little. Thanks again for the very useful responses. I'm learning a lot. And my apologies again to Jolie for kidnapping her thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 So there are 4 wires going in and out of the kiln? Or is there two lives and one neutral? Is it different in England because most supplies are 240v? Here we have a live, neutral and earth for 240v. Then there is three phase which is 430v~ or close to that with three lives and neutral. Most single phase kilns in the US that run on 240 volts have a 3 prong outlet- 2 hots and a ground. No neutral. But if the kiln separates out the two hots so that the sections of the kiln each use 120 volts, then the neutral is needed to complete those circuits, and it's a 4 wire outlet (2 hots, neutral, ground). 3 phase systems are used on commercial buildings here. Typically they are 240V or 208V, but for industrial applications you'll see 480 volt systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Technically yes, it would work, but from a safety standpoint you shouldn't do it. The 50 amp controller box is going to be plugged into your wall outlet, which goes to a 60 amp breaker. If you plug your little A-66 into that system, you'll have a 15 amp kiln on a 60 amp breaker, which is not safe. That makes sense, alas. Okay, what about using a PID controller and a solid state relay for the little kiln? The simple ones are quite cheap... I could get a PID, a relay, and a thermocouple for about 60 bucks. That wouldn't be nearly as nice as the Rampmaster, but at least I could control the cooling a lot better than I can now. Now it's fairly ridiculous, with my one 3-position switch. It involves a lot of switching between high and medium once the kiln cools into the crystallization range. An auxiliary and possibly dumb question I've always wondered about: are those relay powered elements subject to more wear or stress due to the rapid off-and-on at some points? I generally leave the A-66 on low for a long dry-out cycle, and the buzzing has always worried me a little. Thanks again for the very useful responses. I'm learning a lot. And my apologies again to Jolie for kidnapping her thread. Two things affect element life the most in typical electric kiln firings- cycling and temperature. In my own not-totally-scientific tests, higher temps have a much greater negative effect on the elements than cycling. I used to fire all the way up to cone 8. When I switched to firing to cone 6 with a 45 minute hold to get to cone 8, my element life greatly improved. Lower temp but more cycling gave me greater element life. Yes, you can use any controller system. Lots of techie folks build their own. $60 sound like it's well worth the money. You can then do a program that matches the RMII firing schedule. I'd look for one that can do at least 8 segments in a program. I also recommend doing a controlled cooling on all your kilns so that the big ones and little ones cool at the same rate, otherwise your tests will not be accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolieo Posted February 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Hi it's me again! I looked at the rampmaster I I , and it has a 240 v 30amp with a 6-30 plug. I called to see if I could get it so it would take a paragon a66-b plug which is a 14-30r. Now would it be a ) possible worth to change the kilns plugs if they can't? I really wanted to get the receiving end plug so that I could see how it works next week. If I go with the ramp I have have a receiving end for that, change the kiln plug end too, or rather ask my husband to do it. Is the the Orton that inferior? Thanks jolie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Hi it's me again! I looked at the rampmaster I I , and it has a 240 v 30amp with a 6-30 plug. I called to see if I could get it so it would take a paragon a66-b plug which is a 14-30r. Now would it be a ) possible worth to change the kilns plugs if they can't? I really wanted to get the receiving end plug so that I could see how it works next week. If I go with the ramp I have have a receiving end for that, change the kiln plug end too, or rather ask my husband to do it. Is the the Orton that inferior? Thanks jolie The 6-30 is a 3 prong outlet. The 14-30 is a 4 prong outlet. According to the wiring diagrams, the A66-B will not work with a 3 prong plug because it uses the neutral. You'll have to get a controller that will work with the 14-30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayaldridge Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 When I switched to firing to cone 6 with a 45 minute hold to get to cone 8, my element life greatly improved. Lower temp but more cycling gave me greater element life. What an interesting idea! Is there any difference in glaze quality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 When I switched to firing to cone 6 with a 45 minute hold to get to cone 8, my element life greatly improved. Lower temp but more cycling gave me greater element life. What an interesting idea! Is there any difference in glaze quality? Some difference in the glazes. Depends on the glaze. When I tried a soak from 4 to 6, some of my glazes did not melt well. Sometimes they need heat, not just heat work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayaldridge Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Neil, I've had another thought (always a dangerous situation.) Could I use the RM II 50 amp controller for both the big kiln and the little kiln if I ran the little kiln off a 30 amp breaker and the big kiln off the 60 amp breaker, and just moved the controller plug from one dedicated circuit to the other? I could wire a 6-50 receptacle to the 30 amp circuit, and put a 6-50 plug on the little kiln. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Neil, I've had another thought (always a dangerous situation.) Could I use the RM II 50 amp controller for both the big kiln and the little kiln if I ran the little kiln off a 30 amp breaker and the big kiln off the 60 amp breaker, and just moved the controller plug from one dedicated circuit to the other? I could wire a 6-50 receptacle to the 30 amp circuit, and put a 6-50 plug on the little kiln. Sounds like a good plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayaldridge Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Thanks much, Neil. Now all I have to do is talk the boss into letting me buy the controller. My latest stuff is a departure from anything I've done over the last 40-some years, and the surface quality is going to have to be really rich for it to work. I really think I need a lot more control than I presently have over the firing cycle, with my old all-manual kilns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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