Heat Ramp Too Slow E1 Code

[Bill Kielb]

2 hours ago, Genboomxer said:

Am I reading the diagram correctly? 

No, I am not confident. As an example  there is nothing connected to terminal 7 and you have it being installed on the electrositter.  Maybe best way take a context photo showing your elements and the wires leading to them. Step back a couple feet and get them all in the picture. Then we can annotate that so there is no confusion. Right now it’s too hard by description only.

The terminals marked zero (0) and one (1) only turn the relay on.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Bill Kielb

[Genboomxer]

53 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said:

The terminals marked zero (0) and one (1) only turn the relay on.

I was using your drawing as a reference for the numbers and positions, not functionality. I don't think the relay in my model functions the same.  I know I'm the problem here with descriptions.  

Now that I figured out how to post photos -  Here they are:

 

This is how it was and is wired per the wiring diagram. The uppermost poles correspond to the top and bottom element set. The bottom most poles correspond to the middle element set.  The wires in between them route to the controller. Here's an annotated diagram describing routing of element wires to relay.

I'm deleting the relay altogether, I think all I need to do is take the element wires from the left of the relay and connecting them to the left terminal of the controller, and the element wires from the left side of the relay to the right terminal of the controller. The wires in the diagram noted as 'to controller right/left' are redundant and will be deleted.  The thumbwheel wires have already been removed as were both infinity switches.

I have a shot of the panel and wires after my butchery if you need it. It's a bit tangled looking though.

Have I made anything clearer?

 

 

[Bill Kielb]

1 hour ago, Genboomxer said:

I have a shot of the panel and wires after my butchery if you need it. It's a bit tangled looking though.

Have I made anything clearer?

That will work, in essence take both wires from each element group and extend them out to the electrositter. Two wires from each element group, two output posts on the sitter.  Meaning you will be bringing 4 wires to the electrositter. Make sure remaining splices are tight and also make sure the wire thickness is the same. Very important as the connection to cycle the control relay could be lighter gauge. I doubt it, but it could be which would be a reason not to use it.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Bill Kielb

[Genboomxer]

Here's a closeup of my relay.

This is the inside of the panel now that I've removed all the unnecessary components and wired to the controller.

 

[Genboomxer]

4 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said:

Make sure remaining splices are tight and also make sure the wire thickness is the same. Very important as the connection to cycle the control relay could be lighter gauge. I doubt it, but it could be which would be a reason not to use it.

I repurposed the extra wires so nothing changed in that regard.  

Thanks again! I think I finally got it .

Please take a look at the final photo above for how it looks now.  I'm about to plug it in and give it a whirl.

[Bill Kielb]

13 minutes ago, Genboomxer said:

Please take a look at the final photo above for how it looks now.

Yep, looks good.

[Genboomxer]

I win!

Full power test gives hot elements, and seems like it's heating faster than the last time I did the test. If that's possible.

Hopefully this means an end to E1 codes.

Thank you for the expert help and patience, and for making me a lot smarter. 

 

[Bill Kielb]

1 hour ago, Genboomxer said:

Hopefully this means an end to E1 codes.

Nice work, easy to give up. Way to stick with it! Hopefully you are all set.

[Genboomxer]

Well, I'm back.  The good news is my kiln functions and I had a successful glaze firing, and there was no error code.  However...

Because I was getting the E1 code in the final ramp to peak temp, I babysat the firing to closely monitor progress. Witness cones on all 3 shelves; top shelf pack visible  through peep hole.

The schedule graph indicates the kiln should reach peak target temp (2190º F) in 8 hours. All seemed like it was doing fine until about 6 hours in when things started slowing down in seg. 2.  The photo of the graph shows it took 8 hours to reach seg. 3 (2000ºF), then things really slowed down.  Seg. 3 was also slow, but I did not get the E1 code like before.  I checked the cone pack and cone 6 was down at about 2h40m into seg.3 @ 2144ºF .  At this point I skipped into seg. 4 with a 5m hold @1900ºF and let it finish.  

The result was a pretty close to cone 6 firing with a peak temp of 2146ºF.  Packs from R to L = Top, Mid, Bottom shelves.  Looks like I needed a longer hold.

I now suspect a bum thermocouple. Yes, replacement was recommended, but I wanted to see if my problem was due to all the other variables.  This is the model installed -  It ain't cheap and I have a spare type K that is the wire/porcelain insulator kind.  Will it work the same?

[Bill Kielb]

7 hours ago, Genboomxer said:

I now suspect a bum thermocouple. Yes, replacement was recommended, but I wanted to see if my problem was due to all the other variables.  This is the model installed -  It ain't cheap and I have a spare type K that is the wire/porcelain insulator kind.  Will it work the same?

Hmm, interesting, Type R or Type S?  And is the controller programmed to match? If not it definitely causes issues because the profile between the two is enough difference and a proven way to over fire things. Many manuals make special note, especially type K to type R.

Generally a thermocouple won’t make your kiln slow down in its firing and slowing down means you are running out of power to keep up with the ramp. Since you have a type K to test with though, I would definitely change it, make sure your control is set for type K and also just run a slow glaze cone fire program to see if it will follow those speeds reasonably. Type K most often just break before they drift too much.

I am not a fan of custom programs without sound reason and even less a fan of holds because often the kiln can’t really keep up with the custom program and it’s tough for folks to know the actual rates which eventually often leads to what appears to be random results At least in cone fire mode the controller will compensate for the speed.

First I would verify type, programming and even room temperature. The type should be stamped on the thermocouple, make sure the internal programming matches. Type R & S can look the same and often have no specific color for leads in the US. They do have slightly different profiles though so if found programmed in error would require another test run with the appropriate type programmed into the controller. I would also run a cone fire program (slow) the expected speeds are reasonable.

A thermocouple is just two dissimilar metals joined together and they become a battery that supplies a minute voltage. They can drift  over time but eventually break and just quit producing a voltage. Type R & S excerpted below, note the minute difference in output, which insidiously get larger as temperature rises. The difference in output is not necessarily linear through its range which can make temperature and speeds appear odd when mis-programmed and generally a sure fire way to mess with your controllers (and your) perception of temperature.

Last observation, since your thermocouple is in a metal sheathe, make sure the metal cannot contact adjacent kiln metal especially as the kiln heats and expands. This can generate electrical noise or in the case of a grounded sheath can cause all sorts of random issues as well.

A very final thought - as potters we generally don’t think in terms of peak temperature but rather rates and time at temperature. Since our reactions don’t begin until there is enough energy for the fluxed reaction to transpire the heating work beforehand often has limited value with respect to maturity. Rate in the last 200 - 250 f degrees is super important to maturity and holds at peak drive the heatwork towards the next cone because we are in the midst of the fluxed reaction. Cones are made of glaze, they visually show the heatwork attained in the zone of maturity.
 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Bill Kielb

[neilestrick]

Can you post the firing schedule?

That thermocouple is probably a Pyrocil sheathed type K. Paragon uses them a lot. The standard exposed type K with the ceramic beads will work the same, just make sure the controller is set up for the proper type.

[Genboomxer]

9 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

Hmm, interesting, Type R or Type S?  And is the controller programmed to match?

Neither. I took the pic from the vendor's site. They indicate it is a type K direct replacement.  I looked at the one installed on my unit and it looks identical. I checked and there are no markings indicating what it is on the TC.

10 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

First I would verify type, programming and even room temperature. The type should be stamped on the thermocouple, make sure the internal programming matches.

When I first installed the controller the TC was way out of whack on the first firing because the manufacturer incorrectly installed the jump across the pins for a type S. I called Bartlett and they walked me through removing the pin jump.

I cannot find in the manual where to verify TC type other than jumped or un-jumped terminals for type S or K. Type R isn't mentioned anywhere. It does provide offset and zone info, and all looks proper with my controller.

I also checked the red/yellow TC connections to the control board to make sure they are tight.

I calibrate the room temperature before firing.  I notice the TC will 'drift' a deg or 2 each time it's moved out of place, so I zero it out and recalibrate accordingly.  I'm using a digital instant read thermometer given to me by an HVAC tech buddy as my standard. 

9 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

I am not a fan of custom programs without sound reason and even less a fan of holds because often the kiln can’t really keep up with the custom program and it’s tough for folks to know the actual rates which eventually often leads to what appears to be random results At least in cone fire mode the controller will compensate for the speed.

Perhaps this is the crux of my issue?  I use the cone firing program for 04 and have zero problems and I achieve proper, consistent results.  Maybe I'm trying to outsmart the physical limitations of my kiln by using a custom?

10 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

Last observation, since your thermocouple is in a metal sheathe, make sure the metal cannot contact adjacent kiln metal especially as the kiln heats and expands. This can generate electrical noise or in the case of a grounded sheath can cause all sorts of random issues as well.

It's possible there is contact with wire insulation. but I do not see and direct contact to the TC's outer shell. I have kaowool pretty well packed around it.

10 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

A very final thought - as potters we generally don’t think in terms of peak temperature but rather rates and time at temperature. Since our reactions don’t begin until there is enough energy for the fluxed reaction to transpire the heating work beforehand often has limited value with respect to maturity. Rate in the last 200 - 250 f degrees is super important to maturity and holds at peak drive the heatwork towards the next cone because we are in the midst of the fluxed reaction. Cones are made of glaze, they visually show the heatwork attained in the zone of maturity.

I've been learning not to be too concerned with reaching peak temp. A fussy kiln is turning out to be a great education!  I understand peak temp is more a reference than a goal. This last firing turned out fine for the clay body and glazes I use, but I would rather not have to babysit a kiln all day, or what's a controller for?   

[Genboomxer]

38 minutes ago, neilestrick said:

Can you post the firing schedule?

Seg. 1 - 100F/h | 220F 

Seg. 2  - 350F/h | 2000F

Seg. 3  - 150F/h | 2190F | 5min hold

Seg. 4 - 9999/h | 1900F | 5min hold

Seg. 5 - 125F/h | 1400F

38 minutes ago, neilestrick said:

just make sure the controller is set up for the proper type.

I'm pretty sure it's set up correctly, but I haven't found anything in the controller's menu that indicates the controller is specifically programmed for a TC type.  Here's my response to Bill:

9 minutes ago, Genboomxer said:

When I first installed the controller the TC was way out of whack on the first firing because the manufacturer incorrectly installed the jump across the pins for a type S. I called Bartlett and they walked me through removing the pin jump.

I cannot find in the manual where to verify TC type other than jumped or un-jumped terminals for type S or K. Type R isn't mentioned anywhere. It does provide offset and zone info, and all looks proper with my controller.

I also checked the red/yellow TC connections to the control board to make sure they are tight.

I calibrate the room temperature before firing.  I notice the TC will 'drift' a deg or 2 each time it's moved out of place, so I zero it out and recalibrate accordingly.  I'm using a digital instant read thermometer given to me by an HVAC tech buddy as my standard. 

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Genboomxer

[neilestrick]

It may not be able to keep up with the 350F/hr ramp. It will allow itself to drop behind the schedule, though, as long as it doesn't fall too far behind. As long as you don't get an error code don't worry about it, or drop that ramp to 300F/hr. If your elements are in spec, then it's just a case of the kiln not having enough power to maintain that ramp. You'll drive yourself nuts trying to get it to match the program exactly. Worry about the results, not the process.

I would also change the 500/hr drop to 9999/hr, as sometimes it can't control a drop that fast. Slower drops, like 250/hr and below are usually never a problem, though.

In the Genesis:

Menu

7- Factory

4-4-3-Enter

TC Type

[Bill Kielb]

57 minutes ago, Genboomxer said:

Perhaps this is the crux of my issue?  I use the cone firing program for 04 and have zero problems and I achieve proper, consistent results.  Maybe I'm trying to outsmart the physical limitations of my kiln by using a custom?

Cool, seems like you ruled out all the possibilities and actually glad it’s type K. Sorry, just recently had a gal use a type R for an S or Vice versa - very confusing. You likely gained a bit of power by pulling all the old switches out and certainly gained some consistency as I recall it was on a downhill slide of making less temp each firing..  Now I think it’s time to run the cone fire program just to see what it will do with its current available power and have the controller compensate as necessary. You can still run your drop and hold at the end I believe. Maybe gets rid of the babysitting issue and lands on a cone.

And yes, any type K it will perform basically like any other type k sleeved or non oo you determine it’s just a bit under powered and you want to squeeze more power out of it then anywhere there is a bad connection or voltage drop will be wasted power. I usually use an infrared thermometer to quickly see if one terminal of like loaded terminals is running way warmer. If it’s 20-50 degrees warmer then worth checking the connection. Cord ends, receptacles and even one side of a breaker will heat up if the connection has loosened I have found all the aforementioned at one time or another actually. . This would be tweaking and I would not expect a large gain unless you find something pretty hot. Still a fairly quick way to keep an eye on things.

[Genboomxer]

1 hour ago, neilestrick said:

It may not be able to keep up with the 350F/hr ramp. It will allow itself to drop behind the schedule, though, as long as it doesn't fall too far behind. As long as you don't get an error code don't worry about it, or drop that ramp to 300F/hr. If your elements are in spec, then it's just a case of the kiln not having enough power to maintain that ramp. You'll drive yourself nuts trying to get it to match the program exactly. Worry about the results, not the process.

I would also change the 500/hr drop to 9999/hr, as sometimes it can't control a drop that fast. Slower drops, like 250/hr and below are usually never a problem, though.

Interesting. How would the 350F/hr ramp affect the next segment, 150F/hr slowing, and why should that matter if the final ramp up is the more important? 

The 500F/hr was a paste error. I ran the schedule with 9999.  

1 hour ago, neilestrick said:

Menu

7- Factory

4-4-3-Enter

TC Type

Confirmed set to type K.  Also, I found the Genesis tech manual.  I'm now armed and dangerous.

[Genboomxer]

31 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said:

Now I think it’s time to run the cone fire program just to see what it will do with its current available power and have the controller compensate as necessary. You can still run your drop and hold at the end I believe. Maybe gets rid of the babysitting issue and lands on a cone.

I just looked at the med/slow cone fire program and the schedule is:

120F/hr | 180; 120/hr | 250; 300F/hr | 1000; 150F/hr | 1100; 180F/hr | 1982; and final ramp is 108F/hr | 2232F with a 15 min hold, then a similar cool down to what I've been using.

Looks very gradual with a 2-step  'candle'.  I may skip the first segment since I usually wait a day or 3 for glazes to dry completely. 

I'll know in a couple weeks how it works out.

32 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said:

I usually use an infrared thermometer to quickly see if one terminal of like loaded terminals is running way warmer. If it’s 20-50 degrees warmer then worth checking the connection. Cord ends, receptacles and even one side of a breaker will heat up if the connection has loosened I have found all the aforementioned at one time or another actually.

I happen to have an infrared. Thanks for the tip!  Prior to the last 3 firings I replaced the 6-30 plug because the old one got hot and melty around the prongs. I've basically overhauled this little kiln!  I'm probably expecting it to do more than it can. 

My education and experience continue. 

Thanks again!!!

[Bill Kielb]

2 hours ago, Genboomxer said:

I just looked at the med/slow cone fire program and the schedule is:

120F/hr | 180; 120/hr | 250; 300F/hr | 1000; 150F/hr | 1100; 180F/hr | 1982; and final ramp is 108F/hr | 2232F with a 15 min hold, then a similar cool down to what I've been using

just an FYI - I am not aware of any end of fire holds in their cone fire schedules. Usually adding a 15 minute hold drives it to the next cone.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Bill Kielb

[Genboomxer]

11 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

Usually adding a 15 minute hold drives it to the next cone.

I wondered about that too, but I double checked and it's there.  I can copy this schedule and remove the hold. 

However, like many kilns, mine fires unevenly and a hold somewhere in the process evens things out.  Maybe add a 5 min hold  at the beginning of the cool ramp (1900º)?

P.S. - I triple checked.  Turns out I was cocky at some point and took it out of Novice Mode and added the 15 min hold.  

Learning every day... 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Genboomxer

[neilestrick]

19 hours ago, Genboomxer said:

How would the 350F/hr ramp affect the next segment, 150F/hr slowing, and why should that matter if the final ramp up is the more important? 

The last 200F degrees are all that matter in terms of heatwork/cones and your glazes. Prior to that, you really just want a program that your pots can handle, and that your kiln can keep up with. My kilns can only maintain 325F/hr up to about 1950ish and still maintain evenness before it lags. But that's plenty fast. I do a simple 3 step program going up:

200F/hr to 200F, hold as needed

300F/hr to 1975F

100F/hr to 2175F

That gets me to cone 6 in about 8.5 hours. It's a schedule my kiln can keep up with even with heavy loads.  I do the same ramps for bisque.

I don't think there's any reason to add a hold midway up. If things are going to even out, they should do it in the last 200F degrees. With single zone kilns, how you load it is going to have a huge effect on how evenly it fires, probably more than the firing schedule. Pack the center tight, pack the top and bottom lighter.