Heat Ramp Too Slow E1 Code

[Genboomxer]

Greetings Kiln Intelligentsia -

Issue: E1 error code from Bartlett Genesis 2.0 controller retrofitted to second-hand Cress FX23P kiln.

Background: Beginner/Intermediate potter.  I purchased and installed the Genesis 2.0 to achieve better firing results; because I'm handy with DIY stuff, and it was cheaper than buying a new kiln.  1 zone.  'K' thermocouple at 1.5" protruding into chamber.

First C6 glaze firing had the following schedule taken from MC6G -

Seg. 1 - 100F/h | 220F 

Seg. 2  - 350F/h | 2000F

Seg. 3  - 150F/h | 2190F | 15min hold

Seg. 4 - 500F/h | 1900F 

Seg. 5 - 125F/h | 1400F

Kiln reached programed temp of 2191º without issue (i.e. no E code). Result was an over fired load with C7 witness dropped on all 3 levels.  Fortunately the glazes I use are forgiving at that range and I got acceptable results.  I decided to keep the same schedule for firing #2, but reduced the hold to 5 min. but I never got the chance to know if that did the trick because during  Seg. 3 I got an E1 code at 2132º.  I restarted at 2085º, plugged the ports, changed peak temp to 2165º, and hold to 10 min. It ramped for 2.5hrs until  E1 again @ 2133º. I skipped the segment and let it slow cool.  Result was C5.5. Witness C6 & C7 half way on all 3 levels.  Firing #3 was more interesting and frustrating. Same schedule as before; this time I was watching it and saw it stalling @ 2133º; sure enough E1 alarm as I watched. Restarted immediately @ 2090º and adjusted the rate to 130/h, thinking that would help increase final temp. It ramped for 3 hours and reached 2156º when E1 returned to taunt me a second time. Not being a savvy ceramicist I thought 'why not change more stuff, restart again and see if I can really eff things up?' I changed the rate to 125/hr and reduced top temp to 2165º. 3 hrs later kiln reached 2155º and E1 coded. Restart.  1.5 hrs later at 2144º it E1 coded again.  I skipped the segment, added a 10 min hold at 1900º and let it finish.  Of course I was expecting an over-fired batch because I realized too late that math would have been my friend, but we don't get along well. all 3 cone packs were flat.  I'm guessing I hit a C7.5. Fortunately the load was not ruined, just a bit runnier and shinier than wanted. 

Diagnostics: All elements glow @ full power test. Element resistance in ohms: Top - spec./actual = 8.01/8.1; Mid Top = 9.9/9.9; Mid Bottom = 9.9/9.9; Bottom = 8.3/8.4 .  VAC at 60-30 outlet = 237v; 60 amp circuit, 10 awg wire ~ 30 ft from service to outlet. Thermocouple doesn't have a sleeve, is now black but intact.  I did discover that it was reading 5º lower than ambient so I adjusted in the controller.

What have I done, what did I miss, and how can I get this little kiln to do my bidding?

 

[neilestrick]

1 hour ago, Genboomxer said:

60 amp circuit, 10 awg wire ~ 30 ft from service to outlet

60 amp circuit? Shouldn't that be 30 amps?

Assuming the thermocouple is good, the only other thing I would expect is a relay that's sticking when the kiln gets hot. I'd start with changing the thermocouple, though.

At 18" wide and 22.5" deep, and pulling 24 amps, I'd say that kiln is not a very strong cone 10 kiln, more like maybe cone 8/9. But it should still get to cone 6 with the elements in spec.

1 hour ago, Genboomxer said:

Seg. 4 - 500F/h | 1900F 

I would change that rate to 9999/hr.  At 500/hr you're in the realm where we often see problems because the kiln can't cool that quickly.

[Genboomxer]

Thanks Neil!

I appreciate the quick response. I'm sure I overshared but after reading a few similar posts I wanted to be thorough in providing enough info.

The kiln is not going to stray from the cone 6 realm (at least intentionally) so I should be good for a long time. I'm restoring an old gas kiln for future cone 10 work.

The circuit was put in for electric vehicle charging. I installed a 6-30 outlet for the kiln.  I realize it's oversized (and risky surge protection) but it's the only 220 outlet I got. I also plan to get a larger kiln one day once I get this one working and sell a bunch of ware. I was worried that there was voltage drop over distance or undersized wiring. 

I didn't remember until you mentioned it, but I did change the schedule to 9999/hr for the latest firing for a faster drop.

The way I installed the controller retains the thumbwheel/infinity switch and speed control switch in the circuit.  I have the thumbwheel/IS set to 10 and the speed control at 'Manual'. Do you think I need to worry about these other items? 

There is a T92P11 relay in the schematic, and I bought a couple of spares just in case when I got the kiln.  Is this the relay you suggest I replace? Seems like a straightforward swap job.  

The TC has only been through 7 firings, bisque and glaze, so it would be disappointing to have to buy a new one, but heck, why not? Do you also think I should sleeve the TC, and if so will that affect its reading? 

[Bill Kielb]

1 hour ago, Genboomxer said:

The way I installed the controller retains the thumbwheel/infinity switch and speed control switch in the circuit.  I have the thumbwheel/IS set to 10 and the speed control at 'Manual'. Do you think I need to worry about these other items? 

Sorry saw this earlier and just could get back to it now.
Looking at the schematic of this, I would suggest you remove the thumb wheel and infinite switch(s) and replace with relays. I believe that is causing your random results. If I read the specs correctly your kiln was 24 amps and a 30 amp breaker and minimum #10 gauge wire was suggested.

Diagram I found FTX23 and FX23f. https://cressmfg.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/FX23F-FTX23-220.pdf

Could not find FX23P though.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Bill Kielb

[Genboomxer]

Thanks Bill! No apology needed.

I appreciate the link.  I downloaded the same schematic for troubleshooting and it is identical to my wiring.  The 'P' is apparently a mystery to the internet...

I installed per the instructions that came with the controller, although it did not instruct how to set the switches I deduced that everything should be set at max/manual as a bypass to allow the controller to take over those functions.   The controller is wired to the kiln the same as the KS/LT sitter was in the diagram. 4 screws; power in/controlled power out.

Now that you suggested replacing the switches with relays I studied the schematic more critically. Please correct my logic as I am not an electrical engineer, but it seems to me that the switches function differently than a relay, i.e. they are always on during the firing and not cycling on/off, but they do cause the relay to cycle. Since the new controller has taken over the functions of the switches, they appear to be redundant and just providing continuity  to the relay from the controller. It seems to me that because they are wired in series with the relay, it would be simpler to omit/bypass the 2 switches in the circuit and reroute the elements and pilot lights directly to the one relay.  

Or am I missing something?

[Bill Kielb]

6 hours ago, Genboomxer said:

It seems to me that because they are wired in series with the relay, it would be simpler to omit/bypass the 2 switches in the circuit and reroute the elements and pilot lights directly to the one relay.  

Or am I missing something?

No, you may be perfectly correct but if either of the infinite switches do not go full on or their internal contacts have any voltage drop including the relay, things become random. The thumb wheel timer is powered in the off cycle of the magnecraft relay and the on cycle of the lower infinite switch which mechanically affects the top infinite switch. Way too much stuff and connections for me. Now that you have a real controller everything goes and I install my own 12vdc relays controlled by the Genesis. One for element set 1 and one for element set 2..  The loading on each is approximately 12 amps which is light. Mount them in as cool a location as practical and they last a long time. The sitter can stay as a safety or eventually be jumped when you have confidence in the controller. Since these are graded elements you should operate as a single zone.

IMO:  too many items to depend on acting correctly, too many connections. If you have a controller no need to have all the extra complication.

The Genesis controller only has outputs for 12vdc at low current so it does need relays to function. And is also powered by a 12/24 ac center tapped transformer so I am not clear on how you have that wired. Other than a 12 vdc replacement relay for the old 240 vac magnecraft. If so, is the timer connected to the NC contacts of the new 12vdc relay? I think I just upgrade this to how modern kilns work and simplify it.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Bill Kielb

[neilestrick]

11 hours ago, Genboomxer said:

The way I installed the controller retains the thumbwheel/infinity switch and speed control switch in the circuit.  I have the thumbwheel/IS set to 10 and the speed control at 'Manual'. Do you think I need to worry about these other items? 

I assumed the other manual controls were not there, that you had simply swapped out an older digital controller for the new Genesis. I'm with Bill, ditch all the manual controls and wire it up like an actual digital kiln. How/where is the controller mounted? Directly in place of the Sitter?

[Genboomxer]

Hi Bill - I knew I would probably missed important details in the OP no matter how verbose, and I think I understand where you're coming from.

The original kiln sitter was deleted and replaced with an Electro Sitter by Olympic Kilns and has the Bartlett Genesis 2.0 touchscreen controller.  Here is the gist of the installation instructions - 

'Simply remove the screws from the kiln sitter on front of the kiln, then detach wires connecting to the kiln sitter. Wires will be attached to the back of the Electro Sitter exactly as they were attached to the kiln sitter terminal block. Turn switches to HIGH. Program your Electro Sitter and begin many happy firings!'

The wiring was very straightforward, the four contacts of the old sitter are identical to the contacts that came with the Electro Sitter.

I totally understand that all the old control circuitry adds unknown variables and it would be to my advantage to omit it, but I wouldn't have a clue for installing additional relays to the circuit without a wiring diagram. Also, the description of the Electro Sitter says it comes with mercury relays installed, mine are non-mercury (I'm in California, long story as to how I got this unit), so I'm wondering if Olympic took that into consideration. I may not need the extra relays?

Thanks again for the knowledge.

[Genboomxer]

32 minutes ago, neilestrick said:

I assumed the other manual controls were not there, that you had simply swapped out an older digital controller for the new Genesis. I'm with Bill, ditch all the manual controls and wire it up like an actual digital kiln. How/where is the controller mounted? Directly in place of the Sitter?

I installed an Electro Sitter in place of the old sitter - please see my reply to Bill.  

[Bill Kielb]

55 minutes ago, Genboomxer said:

I installed an Electro Sitter in place of the old sitter - please see my reply to Bill.  

knowing that, 
I guess I would jump out all the connections of the infinite switches with good solid connections, including the magnecraft relay and disconnect the timer - no use for it running.

[Genboomxer]

 

1 hour ago, Bill Kielb said:

knowing that, 
I guess I would jump out all the connections of the infinite switches with good solid connections, including the magnecraft relay and disconnect the timer - no use for it running.

I'm in the process of doing that right now.  It doesn't seem too complicated and it looks like I can repurpose most of the wires too.  Stay tuned...

[neilestrick]

Ah, an Electrositter. That makes sense.

Diagnosing these Cress kilns can be difficult, so if you can do away with everything and just run the controller to the relays to the elements it will simplify things greatly.

[Genboomxer]

Good news - I finished bypassing all the switches and it cleaned up the panel quite a bit.  I double checked the routing and connections; taped off the exposed terminals, etc.  Turned it on and, voilà, nothing went Zzzzot! I calibrated the TC (again) and did a full power test. The relay clicked, the pilot light went on, control panel read 'FIRING'.

Bad news -   Cold elements.

I opened it again and rechecked wiring. Rinse/repeat; nothing...

I'm too tired and disappointed at the moment to go back in tonight. I'm sure I missed something simple. I did notice the relay click was not as snappy and loud, so maybe it was on the edge of failure and my pulling and pushing on the terminals did it in. I ordered a new relay because the ones I have on hand aren't the correct spec.

The definition of 'experience' is when you didn't achieve what you wanted in the first place.  At least I'm getting experience.

Any suggestions for how to troubleshoot this is greatly appreciated.

[Bill Kielb]

3 hours ago, Genboomxer said:

Any suggestions for how to troubleshoot this is greatly appreciated.

You really don’t need the relay in the kiln so I would jump it out. If the contacts are worn it only saps power from the kiln elements. The relay in your control will turn everything on and off as necessary

[Genboomxer]

13 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

You really don’t need the relay in the kiln so I would jump it out. If the contacts are worn it only saps power from the kiln elements. The relay in your control will turn everything on and off as necessary

I understand what you're advising, but it's a bit intimidating for a shade tree mechanic like me to interpret how to wire each set of elements to the controller directly. I'm not confident I'm seeing it right.  Per the diagram: 4 terminals, 2 power in, 2 controller out to kiln. On the relay, there are 4 leads for elements, 2 on each side with 2 leads sending power to it from the Kiln Out of the Electro Sitter.  Do I attach the left side element leads to the left, and the 2 from the right to the corresponding leads of the controller? Is it really that simple?

The premise I'm working from currently is that the kiln was working with the current relay in place, and now does not.  I think for the time being I will wait for the replacement relay, then wire according to the diagram and see if that is indeed the culprit.  

I need the kiln to work, and it doesn't need to be perfect.

[neilestrick]

1 hour ago, Genboomxer said:

I understand what you're advising, but it's a bit intimidating for a shade tree mechanic like me to interpret how to wire each set of elements to the controller directly. I'm not confident I'm seeing it right.  Per the diagram: 4 terminals, 2 power in, 2 controller out to kiln. On the relay, there are 4 leads for elements, 2 on each side with 2 leads sending power to it from the Kiln Out of the Electro Sitter.  Do I attach the left side element leads to the left, and the 2 from the right to the corresponding leads of the controller? Is it really that simple?

The premise I'm working from currently is that the kiln was working with the current relay in place, and now does not.  I think for the time being I will wait for the replacement relay, then wire according to the diagram and see if that is indeed the culprit.  

I need the kiln to work, and it doesn't need to be perfect.

You won't have to do anything inside the controller. It already has a 50 amp relay wired to the four screws on the back of the Electrositter. All you need to do is wire the power cord to the correct 2 terminals on the Electrositter, which you've already done, and wire the elements directly to the other two screws. You'll just have to make sure the elements are wired correctly. I don't see a wiring diagram for that specific model on the Cress website, but there are several that are probably similar, and it looks like the top and bottom elements are wired in series, and the middle elements are wired in series? If that's the case in your kiln, then piece of cake- one lead wire from the t/b and one lead wire from the middle will connect to one screw on the Electrositter, and the other two leads will connect to the other screw.

[Genboomxer]

57 minutes ago, neilestrick said:

You won't have to do anything inside the controller. It already has a 50 amp relay wired to the four screws on the back of the Electrositter. All you need to do is wire the power cord to the correct 2 terminals on the Electrositter, which you've already done, and wire the elements directly to the other two screws. You'll just have to make sure the elements are wired correctly. I don't see a wiring diagram for that specific model on the Cress website, but there are several that are probably similar, and it looks like the top and bottom elements are wired in series, and the middle elements are wired in series? If that's the case in your kiln, then piece of cake- one lead wire from the t/b and one lead wire from the middle will connect to one screw on the Electrositter, and the other two leads will connect to the other screw.

Thanks!

So it really IS as simple as I thought.  The terminal locations on the relay (in the diagram) confused me until I realized that it switches right to left; not top to bottom. 

 I'll run out and get some ring terminals and give it a go.

[Bill Kielb]

2 hours ago, Genboomxer said:

So it really IS as simple as I thought.  The terminal locations on the relay (in the diagram) confused me until I realized that it switches right to left; not top to bottom. 

If this is what you mean: in the drawing below connect 1 to 1 And 2 to 2. Top to middle. Follow the path of the red and the path of the blue. When the relay activates this is the path taken. In other words jump out the relay.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Bill Kielb

[Genboomxer]

7 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said:

If this is what you mean: in the drawing below connect 1 to 1 And 2 to 2. Top to middle. Follow the path of the red and the path of the blue. When the relay activates this is the path taken.

 

 

Hopefully the image I edited is visible...   

On the relay, the top 2 terminals actuate the top and bottom elements.  The bottom 2 terminals connect to the middle elements. Call the left side column 1 and the right column 2.

If I connect column 1 wires to the left 'Kiln Out' terminal and column 2 wires to the right, this should work according to what I think you are saying. Correct?

Sorry if I'm slow on the uptake. This is new territory for me.

 

Detail Kiln Relay.pdf 

[Bill Kielb]

11 hours ago, Genboomxer said:

Sorry if I'm slow on the uptake. This is new territory for me.

Hmm, I need a better way to do this. This should be your relay including the numbers. The wire on terminal 6, connects to the wire on terminal 8. The wire on terminal 2 connects to the wire on terminal 4. You should be able to take a picture and include the numbers which would allow us to confirm. You are only jumping out this relay so the elements are powered all the time your controller sends power to the kiln. The relay in the controller will cycle everything on and off as it needs to. I am assuming your kiln is wired into the controller.

The middle elements are powered by the top infinite switch. If you have jumped H2 to L2 and H1 to L1 on that switche then you have jumped out that switch as well. Whenever power is applied to the kiln all elements will come on full. Again pictures would help confirm.

To add - finally noticed your drawing link. The bottom two connections on this relay cycle this relay on and off. The top infinite switch cycles this relay when turning on the middle elements. You can disconnect and insulate so this relay doesn’t keep firing after it’s jumped out.

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Bill Kielb

[neilestrick]

I don't think we need to be looking at the Cress relay setup at all. The elements run on 240 volts, so just connect the element connection wires to the Electrositter accordingly. 

[Genboomxer]

Bill and Neil - 

I appreciate your sticking with me.. I think I've figured out what I need to do, I just need confirmation.

Bill - great explanation for how the relay activates power to each element group.  That confirmed to me that I really do not need a relay at all (even though I have 2 on the way, oh well).

Neil - I've determined it's best to wire the element sets directly to the controller.  Fewer variables in a circuit can''t be a bad thing.

I have already gutted the panel of the old Cress parts and associated wiring, and I will be doing the same for the relay as well.  I plan on using as few wires and connections as possible for safety and ease of service.

Please review my following plan and let me know if you both think this will be successful -

Using Bill's relay diagram and attached photo of the electro sitter: If I put ring terminals in the wires that correspond to terminal 6, 7, and 1, then attach those to the left 'To Kiln' terminal, and do the same for wires 2, 3, and 0, then attach to the right, it should work. Right? Anything else I forgot to consider?

Edited October 28, 2022 by Genboomxer

[neilestrick]

0 and 1 are the control wires, so they will not be in play at all. You only need the wires that go to the elements.

[Genboomxer]

16 minutes ago, neilestrick said:

0 and 1 are the control wires, so they will not be in play at all. You only need the wires that go to the elements.

Undoing last reply -

According to the FX23 diagram, 0 and 1 correspond to the middle element set; 6 and 2 for the top and bottom. So I should be able to connect 6 and 0 to the left side and 2 and 1 to the right.  8 and 4 are from the controller and are redundant.  Do you agree? f. https://cressmfg.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/FX23F-FTX23-220.pdf

Your patience is truly appreciated.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Genboomxer

[Genboomxer]

13 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

To add - finally noticed your drawing link. The bottom two connections on this relay cycle this relay on and off. The top infinite switch cycles this relay when turning on the middle elements. You can disconnect and insulate so this relay doesn’t keep firing after it’s jumped out.

Bill - The diagram you linked corresponds to how my kiln is wired.  The relay installed is a T92P11A22-240.  Comparing the diagram and using the relay drawing you provided poles 8 & 4 are the control; poles 6 & 1 and 2 & 0 route to the elements.

Am I reading the diagram correctly?