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Was: Etsy or Ebay? Now: When Should You Start Trying to Sell?

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Trina ..

Have you looked around this whole site?

This entire site is 100% dedicated to education, encouragement and opportunity.

 

Ceramic Arts Daily for more teaching than a person can absorb ... For FREE

Potters Council for bonding and opportunity and networking ... For a small membership fee.

This FREE forum where you can post any question and get an answer.

 

Apathy??? Really???

If you have suggestions for improving the site, volunteer to serve on a Potters Council committee ... there you would have a voice in a place where change happens. You and any other potter reading this are 100% encouraged to get involved and use your time to make it better. biggrin.gif

 

 

 

Hi again

 

I have looked at the site, I like the site. I also greatly appreciate that everyone can voice his or her opinion your's was:

 

 

'So don't waste your time ... Soon enough your world will be ruled by "Will it sell and at what price?" '

 

and I happen to strongly disagree. No harm done, it is the way of the world. Maybe our 17 year old potter will glean something from these posts.

 

T

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This is my last post in this string because I cannot seem to make myself understood. My fault.

 

'So don't waste your time ... "

is YOUR interpretation, I did not write that.

 

I am a firm believer that nothing we do is ever a waste of time ... We learn from everything ...

and here I have learned not to write anything else. B)

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I went to Cody's page and was impressed with his work for so young a person who has been working for only a year. I do think there are some good points to be made for experience though. Michael Cardew said it takes seven years to master the craft of pottery. I did notice about after seven years I felt confident in throwing and making pieces as I intended them to be.

I think it is a matter of practice, thought and developed levels of skill, not just the wheel but everything combined...design, knowledge of form and the skill to do it, glaze knowledge, firing, etc. Then comes marketing too.

I think Cody's work was good and I think it will get even better with time and maturity.

 

Marcia

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So... let's see here........

 

Let's say we have a "talented" high school student or adult ed student who has taken a couple of lower level courses and has a knack for undersanding "law". Would we be saying that ........hey.... it is a good road for this person to be looking at now doing legal consulting for some fees and trying to expand that business before they ever set foot in a an undergrad or grad college classroom or passed the Bar?

 

Let's say we have a "talented" high school student or adult ed student who has taken a couple of lower level courses and who has a knack for undersanding "medicine". Would we be saying that hey.... it is a good road for this person to be looking at doing some stitching up of minor wounds at the local playground for fees and maybe trying to find an additional playground to work before they ever set foot in a an undergrad or grad college classroom or passed thier Boards?

 

Let's say we have a "talented" high school student or adult ed student who has taken a couple of lower level courses and who has a knack for undersanding "architecture". Would we all be saying that hey.... it is a good road for this person to be looking at building some additions for people and advertising that business before they ever set foot in a an undergrad or grad college classroom, or have apprenticed to an architect or worked afor a good while with a commerical builder, or even got their builder's license?

 

Oh... I guess I forgot............ this is "art" and there are, of course, no imprortant educational standards or learning that needs to take place for art. It is all "in the eye of the beholder" and things like 2-D and 3-D design, color theory, visual composition, clay and glaze chemistry, firing theory and the like are a bunch of "hooey". At least THAT is what I am hearing here from some folks. Seems like a product of the "everybody wins a medal" thinking and maybe also a slophist approach to verbal discourse.

 

Anyone is of course free to do whatever they like (except maybe practice medicine or law or whatever withot a license ;) ).

 

As has been mentioned, a few of us frequenting the CAD forums have some extensive backgrounds in this field and maybe in formal ceramics education and maybe we might have some ideas to share. Everyone is also free to listen to or ignore any advice given here or anywhere. And as was just pointed out.... this site and the Potters Council are all about education....not quashing education.

 

Sometimes the most important thing about education is telling someone things that they do not want to hear. One of the biggest things that a good college education will do for you is to push you right outside your comfort zone. Those that don't like this probably will have a very difficult time with not only education but life as an artist.

 

 

If having standards and expecting that there is a time that it is appropriate for a person to start doing things as a professional (like focusing on selling work)... then please....... call me "negative". If believing in the importance of obtaining a decent education in your field is negative,... then I'm negative. If encouraging a student to focus their finite time on on really learning their craft/art/discipline before focusing time onto on the marketplace... then call me negative. If saying things that need to be said when they need to be said is negative.... I'm right there. In a critique if saying "this piece has the following thngs going well for it, but it is not as sucessful as it could be for the following reasons" is negative ......... then call me negative.

 

 

best,

 

............................john

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So... let's see here........

 

Let's say we have a "talented" high school student or adult ed student who has taken a couple of lower level courses and has a knack for undersanding "law". Would we be saying that ........hey.... it is a good road for this person to be looking at now doing legal consulting for some fees and trying to expand that business before they ever set foot in a an undergrad or grad college classroom or passed the Bar?

 

Let's say we have a "talented" high school student or adult ed student who has taken a couple of lower level courses and who has a knack for undersanding "medicine". Would we be saying that hey.... it is a good road for this person to be looking at doing some stitching up of minor wounds at the local playground for fees and maybe trying to find an additional playground to work before they ever set foot in a an undergrad or grad college classroom or passed thier Boards?

 

Let's say we have a "talented" high school student or adult ed student who has taken a couple of lower level courses and who has a knack for undersanding "architecture". Would we all be saying that hey.... it is a good road for this person to be looking at building some additions for people and advertising that business before they ever set foot in a an undergrad or grad college classroom, or have apprenticed to an architect or worked afor a good while with a commerical builder, or even got their builder's license?

 

Oh... I guess I forgot............ this is "art" and there are, of course, no imprortant educational standards or learning that needs to take place for art. It is all "in the eye of the beholder" and things like 2-D and 3-D design, color theory, visual composition, clay and glaze chemistry, firing theory and the like are a bunch of "hooey". At least THAT is what I am hearing here from some folks. Seems like a product of the "everybody wins a medal" thinking and maybe also a slophist approach to verbal discourse.

 

Anyone is of course free to do whatever they like (except maybe practice medicine or law or whatever withot a license ;) ).

 

As has been mentioned, a few of us frequenting the CAD forums have some extensive backgrounds in this field and maybe in formal ceramics education and maybe we might have some ideas to share. Everyone is also free to listen to or ignore any advice given here or anywhere. And as was just pointed out.... this site and the Potters Council are all about education....not quashing education.

 

Sometimes the most important thing about education is telling someone things that they do not want to hear. One of the biggest things that a good college education will do for you is to push you right outside your comfort zone. Those that don't like this probably will have a very difficult time with not only education but life as an artist.

 

If having standards and expecting that there is a time that it is appropriate for a person to start doing things as a professional (like focusing on selling work)... then please....... call me "negative". If believing in the importance of obtaining a decent education in your field is negative,... then I'm negative. If encouraging a student to focus their finite time on on really learning their craft/art/discipline before focusing time onto on the marketplace... then call me negative. If saying things that need to be said when they need to be said is negative.... I'm right there. In a critique if saying "this piece has the following thngs going well for it, but it is not as sucessful as it could be for the following reasons" is negative ......... then call me negative.

 

best,

 

............................john

 

 

Maybe someone should reprint the bernard Leach essay "Towards a Standard" (from 1980?)

Marcia

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So... let's see here........

 

Let's say we have a "talented" high school student or adult ed student who has taken a couple of lower level courses and has a knack for undersanding "law". Would we be saying that ........hey.... it is a good road for this person to be looking at now doing legal consulting for some fees and trying to expand that business before they ever set foot in a an undergrad or grad college classroom or passed the Bar?

 

Let's say we have a "talented" high school student or adult ed student who has taken a couple of lower level courses and who has a knack for undersanding "medicine". Would we be saying that hey.... it is a good road for this person to be looking at doing some stitching up of minor wounds at the local playground for fees and maybe trying to find an additional playground to work before they ever set foot in a an undergrad or grad college classroom or passed thier Boards?

 

Let's say we have a "talented" high school student or adult ed student who has taken a couple of lower level courses and who has a knack for undersanding "architecture". Would we all be saying that hey.... it is a good road for this person to be looking at building some additions for people and advertising that business before they ever set foot in a an undergrad or grad college classroom, or have apprenticed to an architect or worked afor a good while with a commerical builder, or even got their builder's license?

 

Oh... I guess I forgot............ this is "art" and there are, of course, no imprortant educational standards or learning that needs to take place for art. It is all "in the eye of the beholder" and things like 2-D and 3-D design, color theory, visual composition, clay and glaze chemistry, firing theory and the like are a bunch of "hooey". At least THAT is what I am hearing here from some folks. Seems like a product of the "everybody wins a medal" thinking and maybe also a slophist approach to verbal discourse.

 

Anyone is of course free to do whatever they like (except maybe practice medicine or law or whatever withot a license ;) ).

 

As has been mentioned, a few of us frequenting the CAD forums have some extensive backgrounds in this field and maybe in formal ceramics education and maybe we might have some ideas to share. Everyone is also free to listen to or ignore any advice given here or anywhere. And as was just pointed out.... this site and the Potters Council are all about education....not quashing education.

 

Sometimes the most important thing about education is telling someone things that they do not want to hear. One of the biggest things that a good college education will do for you is to push you right outside your comfort zone. Those that don't like this probably will have a very difficult time with not only education but life as an artist.

 

 

If having standards and expecting that there is a time that it is appropriate for a person to start doing things as a professional (like focusing on selling work)... then please....... call me "negative". If believing in the importance of obtaining a decent education in your field is negative,... then I'm negative. If encouraging a student to focus their finite time on on really learning their craft/art/discipline before focusing time onto on the marketplace... then call me negative. If saying things that need to be said when they need to be said is negative.... I'm right there. In a critique if saying "this piece has the following thngs going well for it, but it is not as sucessful as it could be for the following reasons" is negative ......... then call me negative.

 

 

best,

 

............................john

 

 

 

What a great reply! With everyone so afraid to say anything negative and beginning even the mildest of critical remarks with some silly praise like "You are clearly very talented...", I sometimes feel like I'm at a Tupperware party instead of a Çeramics Forum. Chris, Teardrop and I touched on this when we were debating Chris's "buy locally" campaign. There's something about pottery more than any other art that makes people who know so little think they know so much. You see it at all unjuried (and some juried) shows: godawful crap by someone who just finished one or two pottery classes or someone who is completely clueless about the fact that were they to pot for the next 50 years their pots would still suck. When I taught pottery in Denver during the 70's I began every beginner's class with a little speech that went something like this "At the end of this course you're have some basic pottery skills. You'll be able to pull a cylinder with relatively thin, even walls, pull a handle for your mug and put a lid on a small jar or maybe even a teapot, but please don't try to sell it. Just keep a couple of your best pieces and use a hammer on the others. If you keep potting, a year from now you can dig out those pieces that look so good to you now and see how awful they really are and several years from now, you'll laugh at how bad you really were."

 

Jim

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This is my last post in this string because I cannot seem to make myself understood. My fault.

 

'So don't waste your time ... "

is YOUR interpretation, I did not write that.

 

I am a firm believer that nothing we do is ever a waste of time ... We learn from everything ...

and here I have learned not to write anything else. cool.gif

 

 

 

Just to keep the record straight, you did write that. T

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I am stunned! Nothing printed here should be taken as a comment on you (any of you) as a person--it is merely a discussion about art. Anybody out there own a Thesaurus? Look up the words criticism and criticize. These two words have lengthy lists of synonyms--positive and negative. Postive notations include evaluation, assessment, review, analyze. Negative notations include censure, condemnation, fault, ridicule.

 

I went back and read the full thread from the beginning, and did not find any negativity in the advice given by Chris, John or Mea and yet several people inferred negativity and became quite personal in some of their remarks. The young man who started the thread undoubtedly has talent. The advice given was not to deter him from selling his work, but to use his time wisely towards perfecting his craft while in school--before he HAS to cover all costs for clay, glazes, firings and any other attendant costs (no longer covered by student discounts) associated with setting up his own studio.

 

I know another young man who has a lot of natual talent and has been selling his work to family and friends (and friends of his parents) and has forsaken his plans to study and perfect his craft. It saddens me because he could benefit so much from even four years of study. I am not comparing the two, because I don't know Cody. I've seen his pictures, but have not held the pots in hand--is there a significant difference? None but he knows.

 

One of the first things an artist must come to terms with is separating his art from his persona. Comments directed towards the "art" should not be taken as personal. If a critique is given, consider the words, see if any of them ring a bell, discard those you don't agree with and continue on your chosen path. Part of the joy of these forums is that we can skip some of the stumbles and mistakes by paying attention to those who have "been there, done that" and are willing to share their experiences with us.

 

Shirley

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After lots of lurking and 1 post I feel inclined to say something. This is directed toward the original poster (I'm staying out of the other discussions): I noticed you got pretty defensive when someone didn't reply with "OMG your stuff is awesome"! I am currently pursuing my BFA (Graphic Design, but still) and can tell you that you most definately will have critiques for all your art classes and everyone will tell you like it is. And some teachers have been known to purposely say only negative things to make you want to improve. You MUST have a thick hide in order to succeed. Take what these wonderful people said and whatever your future professors/fellow students say and apply it to your work. Don't whine, don't try to argue with them, just say thanks and see if you can improve based on their advice. Of course, you don't have to apply EVERYONE'S advice, but you should take a good, hard look at what's wrong with your work.

 

Just because someone is raving over your work right now and can't believe that you can do what you do at 17, doesn't mean it will always be this way. For every compliment you get, there will be 10 negative things that will be said about your work. Just thought I would put my 2 cents in, even though something similar was said by MEA and a few others. Maybe you'll listen to someone who is in college right now and experiencing the same things you will most definately experience. Take what you will, but getting even the slightest bit flustered will show your flaws.

 

Thanks,

A.

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So... let's see here........

 

Let's say we have a "talented" high school student or adult ed student who has taken a couple of lower level courses and has a knack for undersanding "law". Would we be saying that ........hey.... it is a good road for this person to be looking at now doing legal consulting for some fees and trying to expand that business before they ever set foot in a an undergrad or grad college classroom or passed the Bar?

 

Let's say we have a "talented" high school student or adult ed student who has taken a couple of lower level courses and who has a knack for undersanding "medicine". Would we be saying that hey.... it is a good road for this person to be looking at doing some stitching up of minor wounds at the local playground for fees and maybe trying to find an additional playground to work before they ever set foot in a an undergrad or grad college classroom or passed thier Boards?

 

Let's say we have a "talented" high school student or adult ed student who has taken a couple of lower level courses and who has a knack for undersanding "architecture". Would we all be saying that hey.... it is a good road for this person to be looking at building some additions for people and advertising that business before they ever set foot in a an undergrad or grad college classroom, or have apprenticed to an architect or worked afor a good while with a commerical builder, or even got their builder's license?

 

Oh... I guess I forgot............ this is "art" and there are, of course, no imprortant educational standards or learning that needs to take place for art. It is all "in the eye of the beholder" and things like 2-D and 3-D design, color theory, visual composition, clay and glaze chemistry, firing theory and the like are a bunch of "hooey". At least THAT is what I am hearing here from some folks. Seems like a product of the "everybody wins a medal" thinking and maybe also a slophist approach to verbal discourse.

 

 

I'll emerge from lurkdom to say:

 

All the professions that you have mentioned are regulated. And for a good reason. No one will die or go to jail if the negative space of your handles is somehow "wrong". Inasmuch as pottery should be regulated, it is as a craft, not as art. We should make well crafted items for use, with food safe glazes that fit well vitrified clay bodies, etc. Much to be learned, for sure. But to say that there are only, or mainly, objective standards in art is quite wrong. If it were so, then we would all agree, for example, on what constitutes a good singing voice. But that is far from universal, as is readily heard by comparing the very different standards of, e.g. Sundanese Jaipongan, Javanese court singing, 'Bel canto', and classical Hindustani singing of just 50 years ago, and of today. All very different, all 'good' in their respective domains. Tuning systems fare no better and I could go at great length about this but won't, even though being 'in tune' is supposedly based on sound and simple physical principles (even more so than colour theory). Yet some people would have one believe that there is more to 'standards' in art than the crystallization of public opinion, or to be more precise, than the ongoing negotiation of what constitutes 'good' at any given time, always a multitude of voices, never in unison. There are theory and principle and physical processes, 'objective' facts, and then there is what you choose to do with them, and what other people think about your choices, and who those people are, and so on. And in this field of discourse art is born. Pottery is very much like architecture in this sense, a combination of art and craft, sometimes in harmony but often in tension and discord with each other. It is by no means clear what good architecture is or it would be a 'boring' subject because all the choices would be clear. Likewise with pottery, given that your rims and handles don't injure people, your glazes don't shiver or leach poison, etc. No one belittles art by saying that it is discursive and subjective. It would be constrained and boring otherwise.

 

I appreciate Chris's admonition very much. I don't see it negatively at all. I wish I could go back to the days when I learned music, and was still unconcerned by anything 'external' (performing, teaching, ugh) or financial. This is what I like about pottery, I am unconcerned about it (not to say that it's unimportant or that I don't discuss my work with people, especially those around me with some practical or academic experience in pottery - but not out of deference to 'education', or not just, but because they have given thought to things, and even if I disagree with them, they point the way to things that I may want to think about). In my musical practice there was a time when the twin issues of money and 'success' have almost killed music for me and I know quite a few people for whom it was the same. Enjoy this freedom, it won't last forever. On the other hand getting rid of pieces has been a pressing concern for me too, periodically. So I sell, and give away, to very appreciative and grateful people. Selling and giving away work that is not perfect is also good, because it means getting off the high horse of 'perfection' and embracing the process of learning and improving, the imperfect physical objects which you produce are a record of your growth. So as long as selling won't stop you from growing, what's the harm in that? And definitely give away. Money is not the measure of everything but it tends to be so more than we realize or like it. Giving away your work will bring that to the surface and force you to come to terms with how much of your self value is actually internalized 'market value' and what to do about that.

 

All this to say: Ebay or Etsy? dunno.

 

Edit: it goes without saying that you need to practice with your hands, eyes, and mind. Pottery is like any other thing, you need to put in your proverbial 10K hours one way or another, school or no school. That doesn't mean that you're not good 'enough' now.

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teardrop,

 

Honestly.

 

Nobody here has ever treated you that way. Nobody is trying to STOP anyone from making pottery. Everyone here is only trying to help you become a better potter. Sometimes that requires advice that is critical. That doesn't make it negative. The negativity is coming from you. You interpret everything you hear in the most negative way possible. I hope that someday when you are an experienced potter, you will recognize the value of that.

 

Mea

 

 

Yer right, mea. (and very perceptive) I do have a >filter< that turns most of what I hear into negativity. This filter came from parents who were critical and judgemental to a fault.....because there are "standards" to follow...don't cha know?? :angry: ($#%@ Bernard Leach!)

This is something I've been in therapy a long time to try to correct and something that has made it very hard for me to be successful in the "regular" world.

 

Looks like I better dig for another $200 for another sesh...huh?

 

Through all of this I have learned >how< I take things in. I have also learned, as in this case, that people will often say things and then deny they said anything of the sort. Cody was told repeatedly....although via side remarks or generalities...that he shouldn't "waste his time"...and that there are folks out there who are dogged by their "bad" pottery....or that they just don't have the skill...and may never have it...

 

nope....no negativity there. :angry:

 

IF there were any good points in his work....I didn't see those pointed out.

 

Then again...I do have >that filter< and need to call my therapist and make another appt.......

 

No...wait....second thought..... maybe I should just call a potter?

 

Keep up the good work, Cody...

 

teardrop

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Are you sure nothing nice or encouraging or positive was offered?

 

Follow all the "look at these' and "what do you think of ..." strings and perhaps you might soften your opinion.

 

http://ceramicartsda...posts&mid=12857

 

 

I've been busy glazing/firing my last loads of bad pottery :lol: before next week's back-to-back markets...so didn't see your reply until now, Chris.

 

However...since you brought it up in more detail in an attempt to prove a point (?)....let me say that I was speaking specifically to this thread with my previous comments.

 

And YES...in checking the other threads you linked, there is no denying that suggestions and praise were certainly given to Cody for both his work and his desire to take higher-quality photos of his work....

 

but at the same time, I can easily use all of those same threads to point out how the >>viewpoints and criticism<< from some (of the same) posters here instantly changed in >>this<< thread towards Cody's actions/intent.....and yes....even his ABILITY....when Cody made the statement that he felt confident enough to sell his work....roughly 3 weeks after his original "look at these" kinda posts.

 

I felt the change in vibe....Cody felt the change in vibe...and it appears that a few others who have heard similar comments shot their way in previous conversations where the topic of "sales" came up also felt the vibe change. Heck...I'm even gonna guess the brain surgeons and lawyers who check in here daily to see how >>real professionals do things<< also felt it when they were compared as equal peers to someone who plays in mud and critiques how coffee cups should look for a living. :rolleyes:

 

Ok...so who needs the scalpel?

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I've been thinking about this thread a lot this weekend. I've been having a wonderful time making gift items out of clay--2 and 3 inch lidded boxes on feet, textured and glazed in pretty colors, little Indian rugs hanging from metal racks that my son makes, plates carved with our local Organ Mountains and a moon and glazed to look like moonlight--etc.--different things that just come to me. I had so much fun making them that I couldn't NOT do anything with them. I also know that I need to do a work many times to get better at it; already the lids on my clay boxes fix much better. I am a small business owner and it only seemed natural to sell my items, so last December I got "certified" as a vendor at our Farmer's and Crafts Market. I get such a kick when someone buys one of my--admittedly--imperfect items. They make them happy and me even happier. I use my revenue to buy supplies, thereby supporting my hobby. It's disturbing to me that someone should suggest that we shouldn't put our items in public until many years have passed, implying that the works shouldn't be in public until much better in quality and near-perfect. I view my craft as an incredible relaxation whose result brings happiness to both the maker and the purchaser. After reading some of the posts I started to doubt myself in my decision to put my works in public and my ego on the line, but I had a good firing over the weekend and I know that on July 4th, my next market, some local folks will get a kick out of my little items and I won't stop bringing them to market, for one, nor trying to make them better and better each time. I hope I never achieve perfection because then I might stop.

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I hope your market went well on the 4th, metal and mud! Were the true "jurors" of your work buying anything out there these days?:lol:

 

teardrop

 

 

Thanks, Teardrop. The market on the 4th was relaxing and happy; it gets a little crazy on Saturdays (already looking forward to tomorrow, though!!). Yes, three jurors approved of my work. I sold three of my little clay boxes that I produced in my latest firing. I am in a box phase (I've been told). It will be fun to so where my next "phases" take me.

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I'm trying to expand my audience for selling my pottery.

I'm a 17 year old high schooler thats very interested in pottery and Ive been doing it for about a year now

and I was wondering if anyone has tried etsy or ebay and which one they have found more successful

any tips?

 

I decided to tryout Ebay

heres my listing if you want to check it out! :) (2 great mugs)

 

 

[links removed]

 

 

Well, I am going to try to answer the question you asked and stay far far away from the rest of this thread. Anyone who has the guts to try this, and pursue it to the point of making it a business has my complete respect. I've been in the sales and marketing business for more than 30 years. I've sold $5 items and my largest sale was $20,000,000 (yes, there's suppose to be 7 zeros and 2 commas in that number, and "no", it had nothing to do with ceramics. :-o ), so my advice will, hopefully, have a little depth and weight. Here it goes...

 

The answer of Etsy v. Ebay is simply "Yes". You're asking about sales and marketing channels. A strong marketing plan will define 10 to 15 different marketing channels. Of these, at least 8 to 10 channels should be in active use at any time. The other channels should be held in reserve and placed into service should any of the active channels prove unproductive. What is unproductive? Any channel that doesn't produce sufficient revenue contribution, over time, to help you achieve your goal should be considered unproductive. You may reactivate an unproductive channel later for any number of reasons.

 

So Ebay and Etsy are two, your Facebook page is a third (social media marketing), build an email list and market by email (email / direct marketing - 4), pick up a table at Costco or a yard sale, or steal it from your Mom and try some weekend craft shows or farmers' markets (retail marketing - 5). Print postcards with photos of your work, and pass them out to everyone you meet (direct marketing - 6), go with your Mom to the grocery store, put flyers on the windshields of all the cars in the parking lot (canvassing - 7). Can you think of some more? Work up to that 8 or 10 number, now track every lead, inquiry, and sale (units and dollars) for each of your channels. Run your business by the numbers, evaluate your product, channels, and everything you do by the numbers. Don't forget to track costs by channel too. If one channel is more expensive, by say 1 or 2 percentage points, but generates 40% more sales it just might be a winner!

 

Congratulations on your new venture! It's exciting, and I wish you all the best. Don't hesitate to write if you have any questions. Never forget that the business side requires as much, if not more, creativity, and art, as the production side. Have fun with the business side, there's nothing like a little jingle in your pocket that tells you, that the market has spoken, and you sir are good enough!

 

Mike

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So... let's see here........

 

Let's say we have a "talented" high school student or adult ed student who has taken a couple of lower level courses and has a knack for undersanding "law". Would we be saying that ........hey.... it is a good road for this person to be looking at now doing legal consulting for some fees and trying to expand that business before they ever set foot in a an undergrad or grad college classroom or passed the Bar?

 

Let's say we have a "talented" high school student or adult ed student who has taken a couple of lower level courses and who has a knack for undersanding "medicine". Would we be saying that hey.... it is a good road for this person to be looking at doing some stitching up of minor wounds at the local playground for fees and maybe trying to find an additional playground to work before they ever set foot in a an undergrad or grad college classroom or passed thier Boards?

 

Let's say we have a "talented" high school student or adult ed student who has taken a couple of lower level courses and who has a knack for undersanding "architecture". Would we all be saying that hey.... it is a good road for this person to be looking at building some additions for people and advertising that business before they ever set foot in a an undergrad or grad college classroom, or have apprenticed to an architect or worked afor a good while with a commerical builder, or even got their builder's license?

 

Oh... I guess I forgot............ this is "art" and there are, of course, no imprortant educational standards or learning that needs to take place for art. It is all "in the eye of the beholder" and things like 2-D and 3-D design, color theory, visual composition, clay and glaze chemistry, firing theory and the like are a bunch of "hooey". At least THAT is what I am hearing here from some folks. Seems like a product of the "everybody wins a medal" thinking and maybe also a slophist approach to verbal discourse.

 

 

Interesting rhetorical questions, here's another, what do the following individuals have in common?

 

George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchill, Bill Gates, Rachel Ray, Andrew Jackson, Henry Ford, Michael Dell, Thomas Alva Edison, Halle Berry, Steven Spielburg, and John D. Rockefeller, Sr.

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So... let's see here........

 

Let's say we have a "talented" high school student or adult ed student who has taken a couple of lower level courses and has a knack for undersanding "law". Would we be saying that ........hey.... it is a good road for this person to be looking at now doing legal consulting for some fees and trying to expand that business before they ever set foot in a an undergrad or grad college classroom or passed the Bar?

 

Let's say we have a "talented" high school student or adult ed student who has taken a couple of lower level courses and who has a knack for undersanding "medicine". Would we be saying that hey.... it is a good road for this person to be looking at doing some stitching up of minor wounds at the local playground for fees and maybe trying to find an additional playground to work before they ever set foot in a an undergrad or grad college classroom or passed thier Boards?

 

Let's say we have a "talented" high school student or adult ed student who has taken a couple of lower level courses and who has a knack for undersanding "architecture". Would we all be saying that hey.... it is a good road for this person to be looking at building some additions for people and advertising that business before they ever set foot in a an undergrad or grad college classroom, or have apprenticed to an architect or worked afor a good while with a commerical builder, or even got their builder's license?

 

Oh... I guess I forgot............ this is "art" and there are, of course, no imprortant educational standards or learning that needs to take place for art. It is all "in the eye of the beholder" and things like 2-D and 3-D design, color theory, visual composition, clay and glaze chemistry, firing theory and the like are a bunch of "hooey". At least THAT is what I am hearing here from some folks. Seems like a product of the "everybody wins a medal" thinking and maybe also a slophist approach to verbal discourse.

 

 

Interesting rhetorical questions, here's another, what do the following individuals have in common?

 

George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchill, Bill Gates, Rachel Ray, Andrew Jackson, Henry Ford, Michael Dell, Thomas Alva Edison, Halle Berry, Steven Spielburg, and John D. Rockefeller, Sr.

 

 

 

Ok I'll bite and suggest that the answer is "no college degree" but I don't think that contradicts what John B said. He was stressing the importance of education but did not say that had to be a formal academic education. I bet all of the people on this list spent years studying and practicing their craft/profession/business before they became successful.

 

I personally did not study any ceramics in college at all, rather I pursued it independently on my own. It took 16 years of intense pursuit before I started supporting myself with the pottery business.

 

Mike, I do appreciate your point about 8 to 10 active channels of distribution, with additional inactive channels waiting on the side. And that making a business work takes just as much talent and energy as making good pots. That type of advice is useful to everyone, whether they are just starting out or have been in the trenches for decades.

 

Mea

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So... let's see here........

 

Let's say we have a "talented" high school student or adult ed student who has taken a couple of lower level courses and has a knack for undersanding "law". Would we be saying that ........hey.... it is a good road for this person to be looking at now doing legal consulting for some fees and trying to expand that business before they ever set foot in a an undergrad or grad college classroom or passed the Bar?

 

Let's say we have a "talented" high school student or adult ed student who has taken a couple of lower level courses and who has a knack for undersanding "medicine". Would we be saying that hey.... it is a good road for this person to be looking at doing some stitching up of minor wounds at the local playground for fees and maybe trying to find an additional playground to work before they ever set foot in a an undergrad or grad college classroom or passed thier Boards?

 

Let's say we have a "talented" high school student or adult ed student who has taken a couple of lower level courses and who has a knack for undersanding "architecture". Would we all be saying that hey.... it is a good road for this person to be looking at building some additions for people and advertising that business before they ever set foot in a an undergrad or grad college classroom, or have apprenticed to an architect or worked afor a good while with a commerical builder, or even got their builder's license?

 

Oh... I guess I forgot............ this is "art" and there are, of course, no imprortant educational standards or learning that needs to take place for art. It is all "in the eye of the beholder" and things like 2-D and 3-D design, color theory, visual composition, clay and glaze chemistry, firing theory and the like are a bunch of "hooey". At least THAT is what I am hearing here from some folks. Seems like a product of the "everybody wins a medal" thinking and maybe also a slophist approach to verbal discourse.

 

 

Interesting rhetorical questions, here's another, what do the following individuals have in common?

 

George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchill, Bill Gates, Rachel Ray, Andrew Jackson, Henry Ford, Michael Dell, Thomas Alva Edison, Halle Berry, Steven Spielburg, and John D. Rockefeller, Sr.

 

 

 

Ok I'll bite and suggest that the answer is "no college degree" but I don't think that contradicts what John B said. He was stressing the importance of education but did not say that had to be a formal academic education. I bet all of the people on this list spent years studying and practicing their craft/profession/business before they became successful.

 

I personally did not study any ceramics in college at all, rather I pursued it independently on my own. It took 16 years of intense pursuit before I started supporting myself with the pottery business.

 

Mike, I do appreciate your point about 8 to 10 active channels of distribution, with additional inactive channels waiting on the side. And that making a business work takes just as much talent and energy as making good pots. That type of advice is useful to everyone, whether they are just starting out or have been in the trenches for decades.

 

Mea

 

 

Not only did they not graduate from college, some never went, and some dropped out of high school... Some worked hard for long periods of time like yourself, others found their path quickly with little to no effort or resources... But, I believe you missed the point entirely, as I was not suggesting that education and practice isn't helpful or even necessary, nor was the question a commentary on the comments about the importance of education, well not mostly anyway... Rather it was a commentary on the establishment of standards and conventions in the creative realm, and it was a commentary on the proper value of peer review. Both of which were used as justification for answering questions never asked in the original post.

 

 

 

 

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