sal.349 Posted June 2 Report Share Posted June 2 Hi! I recently was gifted a paragon A88b kiln and need to swap out the 4 way switch to the infinite switch. I’m not sure which wire goes where. the image is what it says to connect to which wire. However with all the wires I’m not sure which goes where. I included what my own looks and there are over 10 wires total to connect for each one. I am hoping for some clarity or even a little diagram on what wire to connect to the new infinite switch thank you in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted June 2 Report Share Posted June 2 (edited) @sal.349 Do you have two rotary switches? A better picture would help also, I see five element connections in this pic. There should be an even number. Can you confirm the drawing below? Edited June 3 by Bill Kielb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted June 3 Report Share Posted June 3 It would also be good if you could measure the resistance of the elements so we can make sure everything's wired correctly. Also post a picture of the serial plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal.349 Posted June 3 Author Report Share Posted June 3 22 hours ago, Bill Kielb said: @sal.349 Do you have two rotary switches? A better picture would help also, I see five element connections in this pic. There should be an even number. Can you confirm the drawing below? Yes, here is what mine looks like Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal.349 Posted June 3 Author Report Share Posted June 3 1 hour ago, neilestrick said: It would also be good if you could measure the resistance of the elements so we can make sure everything's wired correctly. Also post a picture of the serial plate. How do I measure the resistance? Here is a picture of the plate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted June 4 Report Share Posted June 4 (edited) 2 hours ago, sal.349 said: Yes, here is what mine looks like Do you have two of those switches or just one, and can you confirm the wiring diagram I posted matches the wiring in your kiln? Edited June 4 by Bill Kielb sal.349 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal.349 Posted June 4 Author Report Share Posted June 4 19 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said: Do you have two of those switches or just one, and can you confirm the wiring diagram I posted matches the wiring in your kiln? Yes, I have two 4 way switches and two infinite switches. Yes thank you, the diagram looks the same except for the ground casing on the side Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal.349 Posted June 4 Author Report Share Posted June 4 here is the picture of the infinite switch speciations update: I wired everything up (not sure if it’s right) the elements got yellow hot FAST and the infinite switches started smoking and got red inside. Not sure what I did wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted June 4 Report Share Posted June 4 Yeah, not good - we can’t guess at this. It is easy, but just connecting wires is likely gonna end in disaster. The infinite switches will not use the neutral present in the kiln in a material fashion. Each pair of elements will need to be series wired and 240v will be applied across the series pair from h1 & h2 of the new infinite switch. Taping splices, not a great idea either. Not sure how the tape is being used. Best idea I have is to be able to work off a suggested sketch here but to be safe best if you have someone familiar with wiring safety, connection, reading a schematic etc…. To help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterH Posted June 4 Report Share Posted June 4 What size breaker do you have installed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal.349 Posted June 4 Author Report Share Posted June 4 6 hours ago, PeterH said: What size breaker do you have installed? I have two 30amps connected I had an electrician install it for the kiln Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal.349 Posted June 4 Author Report Share Posted June 4 6 hours ago, Bill Kielb said: Yeah, not good - we can’t guess at this. It is easy, but just connecting wires is likely gonna end in disaster. The infinite switches will not use the neutral present in the kiln in a material fashion. Each pair of elements will need to be series wired and 240v will be applied across the series pair from h1 & h2 of the new infinite switch. Taping splices, not a great idea either. Not sure how the tape is being used. Best idea I have is to be able to work off a suggested sketch here but to be safe best if you have someone familiar with wiring safety, connection, reading a schematic etc…. To help. Yeah I agree, for the wires I’m using a butt connector with the kiln wires one end then a 10guage stranded wire on the other end into the disconnect to then go into the controller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted June 4 Report Share Posted June 4 I believe you'll need to wire the elements in series, and wire the switches using the two hots, no neutral. To measure the element resistance, set your meter to ohms (the little horseshoe symbol). If you have multiple ohm settings, use 200. Unhook the elements from any switches, and put the probes at the ends of an element. They should read about 9.25. PeterH 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted June 4 Report Share Posted June 4 (edited) Here is the idea per element set. Each set of elements are placed in parallel and the group is wired to the infinite switch on h1 & h2. See drawing below. Proper electrical wiring, new crimps, no splices, no tape that will melt, high temperature wire made for kilns, other wire is not rated for the heat. Use the MG wire that came with the kiln, no butt splices, crimp new ends on the existing wire. You will NOT use the neutral when configured this way. Your kiln must be grounded for safety though, just no use for the neutral. Your kiln draws 25.9 amps so code requires for a continuous load, a breaker not less than 125% of the load but not exceeding 150% of the load. So 1.25 X 25.9 amps = 32.375 amps MINIMUM size and 1.5 X 25.9 amps = 38.85 amps MAXIMUM breaker size. Best pick for breaker (and wiring) would be a 35 amp double pole breaker. So your 30 amp two pole breaker seems undersized per code. Kilns are considered continuous loads but even so normally sizing for breakers is not to exceed 80% of its rated load. A 30 amp breaker can only be continuous loaded to 24 amps. I don’t think he sized this correctly. Somebody here can check my elements though, I think they are about 37 ohms each and all four in parallel (full power) approximately 9.25 ohms. Edit: see below for series pair wiring Edited June 5 by Bill Kielb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal.349 Posted June 4 Author Report Share Posted June 4 1 hour ago, Bill Kielb said: Here is the idea per element set. Each set of elements are placed in parallel and the group is wired to the infinite switch on h1 & h2. See drawing below. Proper electrical wiring, new crimps, no splices, no tape that will melt, high temperature wire made for kilns, other wire is not rated for the heat. Use the MG wire that came with the kiln, no butt splices, crimp new ends on the existing wire. You will NOT use the neutral when configured this way. Your kiln must be grounded for safety though, just no use for the neutral. Your kiln draws 25.9 amps so code requires for a continuous load, a breaker not less than 125% of the load but not exceeding 150% of the load. So 1.25 X 25.9 amps = 32.375 amps MINIMUM size and 1.5 X 25.9 amps = 38.85 amps MAXIMUM breaker size. Best pick for breaker (and wiring) would be a 35 amp double pole breaker. So your 30 amp two pole breaker seems undersized per code. Kilns are considered continuous loads but even so normally sizing for breakers is not to exceed 80% of its rated load. A 30 amp breaker can only be continuous loaded to 24 amps. I don’t think he sized this correctly. Somebody here can check my elements though, I think they are about 37 ohms each and all four in parallel (full power) approximately 9.25 ohms. Bill you are a life saver! So two questions how do I connect the two wires in the middle and is the infinite switch the correct type? Should I get a different one ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted June 5 Report Share Posted June 5 (edited) The infinite switch is fine, unless damaged from your previous configuration. Each group of elements draws just over 12 amps. Your switch is rated for 15 amps. You need one switch per two elements. Usually elements will be jumped together at their barrel or element connector and run as just a single wire from there. See picture below of elements wired in parallel at the element connector. Ignore the yellow thermocouple and focus on the red wires leaving the elements. Edited June 5 by Bill Kielb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted June 5 Report Share Posted June 5 @Bill Kielb Paragon shows the elements as 9.25 ohms each. @sal.349 If this is true for your elements, you'll need to wire each pair of elements (top pair, bottom pair) in series and wire each pair to a switch at 240 volts, or wire them in parallel at 120 volts. Does the kiln have a 4 prong plug? Measure the element resistance so we can be sure what we're dealing with here. Bill Kielb 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted June 5 Report Share Posted June 5 @sal.349 I think @neilestrick is correct in that this kiln runs two 120v circuits, so individual element resistance is going to be important whether this is series or parallel. Power wise it ought to be 9.25 ohms equivalent at 240 volts. Measure and tell us the resistance of a single element before doing anything. This may need to be series wired pairs instead of parallel. So if they are 9.25 ohms each and that makes sense, you will need to make them series pairs to work. Series hookup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal.349 Posted June 5 Author Report Share Posted June 5 32 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said: @sal.349 I think @neilestrick is correct in that this kiln runs two 120v circuits, so individual element resistance is going to be important whether this is series or parallel. Power wise it ought to be 9.25 ohms equivalent at 240 volts. Measure and tell us the resistance of a single element before doing anything. This may need to be series wired pairs instead of parallel. So if they are 9.25 ohms each and that makes sense, you will need to make them series pairs to work. Series hookup The ohms read about 11.0-10.3 I took the red and black and put it at the two ends of the element Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted June 5 Report Share Posted June 5 Sounds like worn 9.25 ohm. Use the series drawing above, I removed the parallel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal.349 Posted June 5 Author Report Share Posted June 5 3 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said: Sounds like worn 9.25 ohm. Use the series drawing above, I removed the parallel. You are the best!! so attach in a series manner, and which one does the little white light wire and black wire connect to in the series? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted June 5 Report Share Posted June 5 For 120v pilot light - one side of the light to the P terminal and the other side of the pilot to your neutral wire. This is the only thing you will need the neutral for now. I would leave the top receptacle disconnected for now, it will just likely be confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterH Posted June 5 Report Share Posted June 5 Thinking about how the initial wiring overheated both infinite switched (≫15amps per switch) and didn't trip the 30amp breaker(s). I suspect that the two element were in parallel across 120volts giving about 2*(120v/10Ω)=24amps. Rather than two elements in series across 240v giving about 240v/(10Ω+10Ω)=12amps. Emphasising Bill's point that you will now only need the neutral connection for wiring the pilot lights, not for any connections to the elements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted June 5 Report Share Posted June 5 @sal.349 What color wires are the power cord? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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