JohnS Posted May 23, 2021 Report Share Posted May 23, 2021 Hi, Just looking for some advice regarding an old Duncan Kiln teacher kiln that I recently purchased second hand. Basically I can't get it to reach cone 05 or higher and I'm looking for info on where to start troubleshooting. All the coils seem to work but after 16 hours the witness cone and the mini cone hadn't melted so it is getting some heat, but not enough. My suspicion is that its maybe something to do with the dial that you turn (its an automatic model but basically you turn a dial anti clockwise and it increases the temperature) and perhaps the fault lies there, that when I turn it, it's not actually turning inside - maybe, I've no proof of this, I've unscrewed the cover and taken a look but there doesn't seem anything obviously wrong, all the connections are connected etc. and I see a metal thing at the top move from one side to the centre when being turned so it does appear that whatever the dial turns, is turning something. But is there a tool I can use to see if they're actually working? Any help would be appreciated and gratefully received. Cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted May 23, 2021 Report Share Posted May 23, 2021 How have you confirmed that all the coils work- do they all glow when the kiln is on high? Have you verified with the manual that you are turning the dial to the proper setting? There are a few versions of that kiln out there and they are all slightly different in controls. Manuals for Duncan kilns can be found on the Paragon website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted May 23, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2021 Hi, Yeah, they all glow when on high, I've checked the manual for this model but there's not much info. Basically it says to turn to "ceramic" which I've tried, but also tried all the other settings as well to no avail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted May 23, 2021 Report Share Posted May 23, 2021 Sounds like you might just need new elements, although even worn elements can usually get to low fire temps. Have you checked the element resistance with a meter? Also, post a pic of your control box so we can see which controls you kiln has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted May 23, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2021 I've not mate, how would I go about that? What would I need. Will post a pic shortly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted May 23, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2021 Added photos of front panel (dial knob missing) and from inside front panel, the part with the red dot is what the dial connects to and the little metal part moves from the side to centre when turning the dial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted May 23, 2021 Report Share Posted May 23, 2021 5 hours ago, JohnS said: 've not mate, how would I go about that? What would I need. You'll just need a basic inexpensive digital multimeter that can measure Ohms (look for the little horseshoe symbol on the dial). Most meters have it. There are videos on THIS PAGE that show how to do it. Your kiln will have a different layout, but the process is the same- measure the resistance at the element connections. Ideally we need to know what the resistance is supposed to be, so hit the Paragon web site and find the wiring diagram that matches your kiln. The resistance should be listed on the diagram. If not, we can calculate the resistance based on the wattage of the kiln and how the elements are wired up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted May 23, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2021 2 hours ago, neilestrick said: You'll just need a basic inexpensive digital multimeter that can measure Ohms (look for the little horseshoe symbol on the dial). Most meters have it. There are videos on THIS PAGE Great info, cheers. Is THIS PAGE supposed to be a hyperlink? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted May 23, 2021 Report Share Posted May 23, 2021 5 minutes ago, JohnS said: Great info, cheers. Is THIS PAGE supposed to be a hyperlink? Oops! THIS PAGE. Also read THIS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted May 23, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2021 Great stuff, cheers, I'll try tomorrow hopefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted May 23, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2021 Quick update: Read the part about the paper test so I ran up to the kiln, popped the lid and turned it on, while it was heating up I noticed that in fact it's only the lower part of the kiln that is heating up (so when I looked through the peephole while it was mid fire it looked like all the elements were on, when in fact it was only the lower half), there are 8 elements and only the bottom 4 are heating up, so I guess I'm getting somewhere! So now I need to figure out how to turn these top 4 on, it's unlikely that all 4 don't work so it could be something like a bad connection somewhere? Not sussed out what all the wires mean yet so not sure what to pull out/blow on and put back on again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted May 24, 2021 Report Share Posted May 24, 2021 18 hours ago, JohnS said: Quick update: Read the part about the paper test so I ran up to the kiln, popped the lid and turned it on, while it was heating up I noticed that in fact it's only the lower part of the kiln that is heating up (so when I looked through the peephole while it was mid fire it looked like all the elements were on, when in fact it was only the lower half), there are 8 elements and only the bottom 4 are heating up, so I guess I'm getting somewhere! So now I need to figure out how to turn these top 4 on, it's unlikely that all 4 don't work so it could be something like a bad connection somewhere? Not sussed out what all the wires mean yet so not sure what to pull out/blow on and put back on again When a whole section of the kiln is out it's usually due to a dead relay. Your kiln has a couple of relays, and a couple of other timer/relay things. If there are no obvious problems with wiring, melted relays, etc, then you'll need to trace the flow of power with a meter, with the power on. That may or may not be something you're comfortable doing. If not, you could start with replacing the cheapest part and go from there. You'll need to open the box and trace the wires backwards from the elements and see what parts the power flows through back to the sitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 24, 2021 Report Share Posted May 24, 2021 1 hour ago, neilestrick said: When a whole section of the kiln is out it's usually due to a dead relay. Your kiln has a couple of relays I think that kiln has the cycle timer and a countdown timer. If one of them is not working then I believe it’s wired so the top elements don’t energize. Post the model number and we might be able to narrow it down as to most likely defective component. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted May 24, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2021 1 minute ago, Bill Kielb said: I think that kiln has the cycle timer and a countdown timer. If one of them is not working then I believe it’s wired so the top elements don’t energize. Post the model number and we might be able to narrow it down as to most likely defective component. It's the Duncan ea-716, there should be pictures above. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted May 24, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2021 1 hour ago, neilestrick said: When a whole section of the kiln is out it's usually due to a dead relay. Your kiln has a couple of relays, and a couple of other timer/relay things. If there are no obvious problems with wiring, melted relays, etc, then you'll need to trace the flow of power with a meter, with the power on. That may or may not be something you're comfortable doing. If not, you could start with replacing the cheapest part and go from there. You'll need to open the box and trace the wires backwards from the elements and see what parts the power flows through back to the sitter. Great stuff cheers, I've borrowed a multimeter so I'll try and work out how to use it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 24, 2021 Report Share Posted May 24, 2021 13 minutes ago, JohnS said: It's the Duncan ea-716, there should be pictures above. Cheers. Got is, looks like ea-820 from pics. I Will look Up the schematic if available1 @JohnS this should be it https://paragonweb.com/wp-content/uploads/W-EA-820-8-Control-Panel.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted May 24, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2021 3 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said: Got is, looks like ea-820 from pics. I Will look Up the schematic if available1 @JohnS this should be it https://paragonweb.com/wp-content/uploads/W-EA-820-8-Control-Panel.pdf Good man cheers, dunno where I got the model number from but thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 24, 2021 Report Share Posted May 24, 2021 2 minutes ago, JohnS said: Good man cheers, dunno where I got the model number from but thanks. There are several versions can you get the number off the plate on the side of the kiln. Don’t think that’s your model in the schematic. A slight different version of yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catatonic Posted May 25, 2021 Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 On 5/23/2021 at 10:20 AM, JohnS said: Added photos of front panel (dial knob missing) and from inside front panel, the part with the red dot is what the dial connects to and the little metal part moves from the side to centre when turning the dial. Ye gods, man, that is the same jalopy I have!! With exactly the same heating problem. I just posted about it on another thread. But I just replaced my elements. Paragon wants around $75 per element. Mulitply by 8 and you are a fourth of the way to a new kiln. I tried to go cheaper and got custom elements from Krueger Pottery Supply at half the cost--they have to be stretched before installation--but I'm still not reaching anything above ^05-^04. That is with new relays, new switches, new sitter, the whole lot; not sure if my problem is that the elements are not spec (my kiln repair guy believes this) or if my flaking fiber lid is the problem--it is dusting everything in the chamber. So if you do decide to get new elements, I would humbly suggest not to go with anything other than the Paragon ones made specially for that kiln. I sure hope your lid is in good shape and that you didn't pay a lot for this one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted May 25, 2021 Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 2 hours ago, Catatonic said: Paragon wants around $75 per element. Mulitply by 8 and you are a fourth of the way to a new kiln. Duncan kilns are expensive to maintain. They use twice as many elements as most kilns, and those elements are not cheap. Even at good prices they cost more than most kilns for a full set. I think Paragon's prices are outrageous for an element of that size. The problem with non-spec elements is that there's more to an element than just the resistance. There's also the thickness of the wire, the size of the mandrel used to roll them, and the spacing of the coils. If the folks who made them know what they're doing, then they should work. But if everything else on the kiln is functioning as it should but it still won't get to temp, then the coils may very well be the problem. I use Euclids.com for non-factory elements, as they are very knowledgeable and make a lot of elements. The problem is that you don't want to keep putting money into an old kiln in an effort to get it working. You'll undoubtedly waste some money replacing parts that aren't actually the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catatonic Posted May 25, 2021 Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 30 minutes ago, neilestrick said: Duncan kilns are expensive to maintain. They use twice as many elements as most kilns, and those elements are not cheap. Even at good prices they cost more than most kilns for a full set. I think Paragon's prices are outrageous for an element of that size. I suspect the reason they price them so high is they would rather have you just buy one of their new kilns. Probably tired of people keeping their old Duncans running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted May 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 On 5/24/2021 at 4:41 PM, neilestrick said: When a whole section of the kiln is out it's usually due to a dead relay. Your kiln has a couple of relays, and a couple of other timer/relay things. If there are no obvious problems with wiring, melted relays, etc, then you'll need to trace the flow of power with a meter, with the power on. That may or may not be something you're comfortable doing. If not, you could start with replacing the cheapest part and go from there. You'll need to open the box and trace the wires backwards from the elements and see what parts the power flows through back to the sitter. Just a wee update and question: So, firstly - I'm guessing this is the relay (photo)? There are two of them, one for top part and one for bottom (for this model at least). I took the connectors out of both relays and put the top connectors in the bottom relay and thankfully the problematic top half started working meaning that I think this relay is the problem. Any advice on where to pick up a new relay for this (it is indeed the ea820 model), does it need to be an offical part or can I grab something off amazon, I noticed there were some there, am I looking for a particular type or relay? Thanks again John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 25, 2021 Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 17 minutes ago, JohnS said: Any advice on where to pick up a new relay for this (it is indeed the ea820 model), does it need to be an offical part or can I grab something off amazon, I noticed there were some there, am I looking for a particular type or relay? Just needs to match the ratings so 240volt 50/60 hz ac coil, and at least contacts rated equal to or greater than 25amps a 300v. Magnecraft is a popular relay so you should be able to easily find it or and equal. Ok to be superior as well so contacts rated at 35 amps all good. To add common type: this is a double pole double throw relay, dpdt. Good work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted May 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 1 minute ago, Bill Kielb said: Just needs to match the ratings so 240volt 50/60 hz ac coil, and at least contacts rated equal to or greater than 25amps a 300v. Magnecraft is a popular relay so you should be able to easily find it or and equal. Ok to be superior as well so contacts rated at 35 amps all good. Good work! Great stuff! Lastly... What exactly should I Google, seems to be a lot of relays that come up, is there a specific phrase/keywords for this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted May 25, 2021 Report Share Posted May 25, 2021 1 minute ago, JohnS said: What exactly should I Google, seems to be a lot of relays that come up, is there a specific phrase/keywords for this? Start with the 44R*Rc11-240... I can't read it clearly. I would get one that looks like the one you have, with the terminals at the end so that it fit's properly. There are other relays out there that would do the job, however some have the terminals at the top and that may not fit in your panel properly. Like Bill said, it's a common relay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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