Skutt KilnMaster Touchscreen on different brand kiln

[Medvadze]

Dear All,

Did anyone ever tried to install Skutt KMT controller on any other brand of the kiln?

I've seen that they mentioned some calibration to the specific model of the skutt kiln, but still hope it's doable... Or maybe anyone has at least wiring diagram for the KMT..

Thank you,

Alexander.

[neilestrick]

You can use it on other brands, but just like the KM controller, it probably won't fit if you're replacing an existing controller. The Skutt KM touchpad and KMT mounting plate are larger than other brands like the  Bartlett V6-CF and L&L Dynatrol & Evenheat RM-II, which are different dimensions than the Paragon Sentry/RTC-100/DTC, which are different than the Orton Autofire, which is different than the Evenheat Tap. If you're building and external digital controller from scratch it's not a problem, you just cut the whole for whatever size controller you're using. But if you're working with an existing digital kiln, you'll need to make sure the controller will fit on the box, and then either cut the box to fit the larger controller, or make a mounting plate if you're switching to a smaller controller.

If you're replacing an existing non-touchscreen controller, I'd first see if there's one available that's the same size as the one you have. It'll be a simple direct swap that way. The V6-CF and Dynatrol can be replaced with the Genesis 2.0, which is a great controller. Orton also has the Genesis, which they are branding the Sentinel. Orton has the AutoFire Slide. Evenheat has the TAP. The Skutt KMT and Evenheat TAP cost $150-200 more than the other brands, however I will say the interface on both are pretty nice. Whether or not it's worth the extra money is up to you.

[Medvadze]

On 2/6/2021 at 11:26 PM, neilestrick said:

You can use it on other brands, but just like the KM controller, it probably won't fit if you're replacing an existing controller. The Skutt KM touchpad and KMT mounting plate are larger than other brands like the  Bartlett V6-CF and L&L Dynatrol & Evenheat RM-II, which are different dimensions than the Paragon Sentry/RTC-100/DTC, which are different than the Orton Autofire, which is different than the Evenheat Tap. If you're building and external digital controller from scratch it's not a problem, you just cut the whole for whatever size controller you're using. But if you're working with an existing digital kiln, you'll need to make sure the controller will fit on the box, and then either cut the box to fit the larger controller, or make a mounting plate if you're switching to a smaller controller.

If you're replacing an existing non-touchscreen controller, I'd first see if there's one available that's the same size as the one you have. It'll be a simple direct swap that way. The V6-CF and Dynatrol can be replaced with the Genesis 2.0, which is a great controller. Orton also has the Genesis, which they are branding the Sentinel. Orton has the AutoFire Slide. Evenheat has the TAP. The Skutt KMT and Evenheat TAP cost $150-200 more than the other brands, however I will say the interface on both are pretty nice. Whether or not it's worth the extra money is up to you.

Thank you for your detailed reply neilestrick!

Actually I would like to install KMT on Nabertherm N200 (1997) 5 side frontloader. Currently it has Nabertherm C30 controller onboard which is quite okish, but still missing nice modern features KMT has.

I'm not 100% sure yet, but probably N200 doesn't have amp sensor. Do you think I better install one?

Both - N200 and KMT are 3 phase versions (380V for EU market)

[neilestrick]

The amp sensor isn't necessary for firing, just for diagnostics. I've never found them to be necessary. The controller runs on 24 volt power. 3 phase doesn't come into play there. What power does the C30 run on?

I'd buy a Genesis from Bartlett and save $200.

[Medvadze]

6 hours ago, neilestrick said:

The amp sensor isn't necessary for firing, just for diagnostics. I've never found them to be necessary. The controller runs on 24 volt power. 3 phase doesn't come into play there. What power does the C30 run on?

I'd buy a Genesis from Bartlett and save $200.

C30 operates at 12V.

KMT I already have (brand new), but since I'm in Europe and paid all the customs fees I treat it as non-returnable option...

So I would like to install it anyway..

 

[neilestrick]

HERE is a link to wiring diagrams for KMT kilns. The wiring for the controller will be the same, you'll just have to figure out which outputs you need for your setup. I would contact Skutt and see if they have a recommendation on a transformer to power the controller that will work with European voltage.

[Medvadze]

5 hours ago, neilestrick said:

HERE is a link to wiring diagrams for KMT kilns. The wiring for the controller will be the same, you'll just have to figure out which outputs you need for your setup. I would contact Skutt and see if they have a recommendation on a transformer to power the controller that will work with European voltage.

Thank you Neil for your very great direction for this topic! (And the biggest thanks for not being "ah, don't even try this its not gonna work")

[Medvadze]

On 2/9/2021 at 4:38 PM, neilestrick said:

HERE is a link to wiring diagrams for KMT kilns. The wiring for the controller will be the same, you'll just have to figure out which outputs you need for your setup. I would contact Skutt and see if they have a recommendation on a transformer to power the controller that will work with European voltage.

Hi, I've got a few more questions regarding the logic of KMT controller, if you know how this logic may work:

1. Do I understand right that KMT is the same for all the sizes of the skutt kilns (from 1-2 heating elements to the biggest ones)?

2. If 1 is correct does the controller knows what kiln model it is installed on? Or it's just blindly triggers all it's OUT1-5 signals to energize everything what's connected to it and tracks the temperature? Or it works somehow smarter and KMT really orchestrates the elements for the best heat distribution. Let's assume we don't have multi zones option here.

3. If KMT is managing OUT1-5 signals smarter than just triggering them all simultaneously how can I engage it with my 5 sided N200 then?

Any idea regarding thought above is much much appreciated.

Alexander.

[Dick White]

Jumping in here as a backup advisor to Neil's excellent advice... The Skutt KMT controller is a private label variant of the Bartlett Genesis touchscreen controller. They buy enough of them for the quantity of their production that they are able to ask Bartlett to make theirs in a different size and shape but with only the slightest change in the functionality. Skutt is also a bit stingy with their technical documentation for this controller. But, since the guts of the Skutt KMT are derived from the Bartlett Genesis, the Bartlett documentation is helpful. https://binst.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/manual/asset_path/333/Genesis___Genesis_Mini_-_Technical_Manual.pdf  In summary to get straight to your latest question, there are five outputs and three thermocouple inputs. The first three outputs are related to the thermocouple inputs for control of the heating elements and the other two outputs are for other things. One does not need three thermocouples, the device also can be programmed to use only one or two thermocouples. When there is only one thermocouple as temperature data input to the controller,  either only output #2 is active or all three outputs trigger simultaneously. When there are two thermocouples, output controls  #1 and #2 are independently active. And for three thermocouples, all three outputs are independently active. The 12v outputs trigger the low voltage coils of the relays to energize the high voltage heating elements. With multiple thermocouples, care must be taken to wire the thermocouple input and relay output of the related kiln sections together, i.e., you don't want the controller to read the top section thermocouple input and turn on the output that is wired to the bottom section elements. Note that the default configuration of the Skutt product line is single zone control. There is only one thermocouple sensing the heating needs of the entire kiln. The larger models have several sections, each driven by separate relays, but the controller outputs to all the relays are triggered simultaneously when heat is called for by the single thermocouple. For the larger Skutt kilns, you can pay extra for multi-zone control, which places thermocouples in each section of the kiln, and then the controller will trigger each section's relay according to the demands of that thermocouple. The Skutt KMT documentation does not tell you how to adjust the number of connected thermocouples because they don't think you, the end user, need to know. The KMT controller comes from the factory pre-programmed for the kiln it is installed on. If you, the end user, were to have a controller failure and need a new one, Skutt will ask what kiln you have and pre-program the replacement controller so you only have to reconnect all the wires in the same places on the back of the new one. But since it is derived from the Bartlett Genesis, you can read the Bartlett documentation to see how to delve into the setup menu and find the Number of Thermocouples item to adapt your KMT controller to the configuration of your non-Skutt kiln if you want to install more thermocouples for separate zones.

Finally, your kiln is the 5-sided N200. I don't see a wiring diagram for it, but the advertising copy suggests it has a single S-type thermocouple. The default Skutt configuration is a K-type thermocouple, but the Bartlett documentation has instruction for changing the thermocouple type. You will need to determine how many relays your kiln has and connect them to the relevant outputs.

[neilestrick]

1 hour ago, Medvadze said:

1. Do I understand right that KMT is the same for all the sizes of the skutt kilns (from 1-2 heating elements to the biggest ones)?

2. If 1 is correct does the controller knows what kiln model it is installed on? Or it's just blindly triggers all it's OUT1-5 signals to energize everything what's connected to it and tracks the temperature? Or it works somehow smarter and KMT really orchestrates the elements for the best heat distribution. Let's assume we don't have multi zones option here.

3. If KMT is managing OUT1-5 signals smarter than just triggering them all simultaneously how can I engage it with my 5 sided N200 then?

1. Correct, the controller doesn't care which kiln it's on. It's just turning relays on and off, and has no connection to the actual power going to the elements.

2. I don't know how the KMT is set up as far as outputs 1-5. Older models had 4 outputs, with output 4 being used for controlling external equipment like vent fans. It may be that output 5 is now the fan control, but you'll have to look that up in the manual. If you've only got one thermocouple/zone, then all the relays need to trigger at the same time. You can either run them off of multiple outputs, or you can daisy chain them together from one output. As Dick said, it all depends on how many zones you tell the controller you have.

3. You'll have to wire it up according to how many relays you have sending power to the elements. The KMT needs relays with a 12V coil, so you'll need to verify that as well.

[Dick White]

16 minutes ago, neilestrick said:

2. I don't know how the KMT is set up as far as outputs 1-5. Older models had 4 outputs, with output 4 being used for controlling external equipment like vent fans. It may be that output 5 is now the fan control, but you'll have to look that up in the manual.

 

Output 4 is still for the vent fan. The new fifth output is for a safety relay, if present.

[neilestrick]

2 minutes ago, Dick White said:

Output 4 is still for the vent fan. The new fifth output is for a safety relay, if present.

The wiring diagram shows an output labeled Safety, in addition to Output 5.

[Dick White]

26 minutes ago, neilestrick said:

The wiring diagram shows an output labeled Safety, in addition to Output 5.

Interesting. I see that now looking closer at all the Skutt diagrams, but none of them use output 5. I wonder why they had Bartlett put another output on the KMT board and what it does? The Bartletts have only 4 outputs plus safety.

[neilestrick]

24 minutes ago, Dick White said:

Interesting. I see that now looking closer at all the Skutt diagrams, but none of them use output 5. I wonder why they had Bartlett put another output on the KMT board and what it does? The Bartletts have only 4 outputs plus safety.

Yeah, I don't know why they put another output, especially considering they don't make any kilns that have more than 3 sections and you can always daisy chain the relays.

[Dick White]

2 hours ago, neilestrick said:

Yeah, I don't know why they put another output, especially considering they don't make any kilns that have more than 3 sections and you can always daisy chain the relays.

Pure speculation of the snarkiest kind... L& L has a monster 5-section Jupiter that could use five zone outputs, if only there were five thermocouple inputs. And now Jim can snort at Steve from across the aisle at the next NCECA that Skutt controllers have more outputs than L&L even though L&L is the only one who could use them.

[Medvadze]

Wow, thats super informative folks! Thank you so much Dick and Neil. I'm a huge fan of you guys now, couldn't get any better answer!

[neilestrick]

Just now, Dick White said:

Pure speculation of the snarkiest kind... L& L has a monster 5-section Jupiter that could use five zone outputs, if only there were five thermocouple inputs. And now Jim can snort at Rob from across the aisle at the next NCECA that Skutt controllers have more outputs than L&L even though L&L is the only one who could use them.

Ha!  I love it! I had a friend who built a gas kiln based on the design of my kiln. I built the burner system for him, just like mine, so pretty much identical kilns. But he built his kiln one brick taller so he could always say his kiln was bigger!

Seriously, though, maybe they've got something in the works that will need 4 outputs, and keep the fifth for fan control. I can't see any reason they would make such a change to the board otherwise (I mean besides your theory of bragging rights).