E-3 Firing Error (ASAP)

[Brandon Franks]

Hey,

 

Got an E-3 firing error on the second hold of my glazing program. I noticed that my third zone as lagging behind all night, (zone with my kiln vent, and the top of the kiln was very lightly packed. I will throw some dud pieces in the top of the kiln and hope for something better for now.

 

Some notes too- I noticed the firing lagging behind all night, my zone 3 was (during the ramp to top temp) 40^f below the top temp, and the kiln just finished with it below the top temp since zone 1&2 hit it.

My kiln,  for this load, has one full shelf separating zone 3 and 2, and 2 had some taller pieces so it was just left open (probably 1.5 feet of space to the top from the full shelf. I have never had this happened, nothing abnormal about this kiln load at all, either. I really need all three of these zones equal.

 

[Brandon Franks]

1 hour ago, Brandon Franks said:

Hey,

 

Got an E-3 firing error on the second hold of my glazing program. I noticed that my third zone as lagging behind all night, (zone with my kiln vent, and the top of the kiln was very lightly packed. I will throw some dud pieces in the top of the kiln and hope for something better for now.

 

Some notes too- I noticed the firing lagging behind all night, my zone 3 was (during the ramp to top temp) 40^f below the top temp, and the kiln just finished with it below the top temp since zone 1&2 hit it.

My kiln,  for this load, has one full shelf separating zone 3 and 2, and 2 had some taller pieces so it was just left open (probably 1.5 feet of space to the top from the full shelf. I have never had this happened, nothing abnormal about this kiln load at all, either. I really need all three of these zones equal.

 

An hour in, that bottom section is still 10^f behind. I wouldn't care normally, but there is no vent on nor is there a peep open. 

 

(Is this a relay starting to give out?) 

[neilestrick]

Could be a relay sticking at the high end, but it wouldn't cause the 10 degrees at the low end. More likely a thermocouple or element problem.

[Brandon Franks]

11 minutes ago, neilestrick said:

Could be a relay sticking at the high end, but it wouldn't cause the 10 degrees at the low end. More likely a thermocouple or element problem.

Both elements and therms  are less than six firings old, that's what's confusing me.

 

Now It is 20^f lower 

[neilestrick]

If it's getting worse, it could be a relay sticking intermittently. They tend to get worse as the kiln gets hotter when they're going bad. If you're comfortable with doing it, open the panel and get your meter on it and see if there's power flowing from that relay. Also check for loose thermocouple connections. Sometimes the set screws in the block will loosen up after a few firings.

[Brandon Franks]

31 minutes ago, neilestrick said:

If it's getting worse, it could be a relay sticking intermittently. They tend to get worse as the kiln gets hotter when they're going bad. If you're comfortable with doing it, open the panel and get your meter on it and see if there's power flowing from that relay. Also check for loose thermocouple connections. Sometimes the set screws in the block will loosen up after a few firings.

My kiln has the relay lights on the box, so I know the relay is clicking.

 

I will check for a lose connection right now, maybe snap a pic, see if you can find anything I gloss over

 

[Brandon Franks]

F&^$&

 

 

I found out the problem, I have to look at it closer. That thing is fried AF.

[Brandon Franks]

10 minutes ago, Brandon Franks said:

F&^$&

 

 

I found out the problem, I have to look at it closer. That thing is fried AF.

 

That white wire need to be replaced, right? (if so where the heck do I find them?)

 

[Bill Kielb]

3 minutes ago, Brandon Franks said:

 

That white wire need to be replaced, right? (if so where the heck do I find them?)

 

Yep, it’s a bailey but cone art design. Making those connections properly is important where the wire strands are trapped between the element and the connector so the screw bears on the element only. After several years of watching these, those that are max loaded in the 20 amp range will begin to fail after maybe 100 firings. I used to check them routinely and change out the ones with the highest loading when they started to discolor and generate heat.

That one might have been installed with the wires trapped between the screw (looks that way in the picture) or simply not tight enough to begin with.

[Brandon Franks]

1 minute ago, Bill Kielb said:

Yep, it’s a bailey but cone art design. Making those connections properly is important where the wire strands are trapped between the element and the connector so the screw bears on the element only. After several years of watching these, those that are max loaded in the 20 amp range will begin to fail after maybe 100 firings. I used to check them routinely and change out the ones with the highest loading when they started to discolor and generate heat.

That one might have been installed with the wires trapped between the screw (looks that way in the picture) or simply not tight enough to begin with.

I was told you can attach them any way, either wire over the element or the element over the wire. Does it actually matter? They are scattered through the connections, wither way. Never had a problem with it until now. 

[Bill Kielb]

Just now, Brandon Franks said:

I was told you can attach them any way, either wire over the element or the element over the wire. Does it actually matter? They are scattered through the connections, wither way. Never had a problem with it until now. 

It does matter, they are not made for stranded wire so use the element to trap all the strands between itself and the bottom of the connector and the screw presses on the element. Ya got a nice burned up example right there.

[Brandon Franks]

2 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said:

It does matter, they are not made for stranded wire so use the element to trap all the strands between itself and the bottom of the connector and the screw presses on the element. Ya got a nice burned up example right there.

Okay so just so I don't mess it up again-

 

Inside the copper connector it should go-

 

(Top of copper)

Screw

Element connection

Relay wire

(Bottom of copper)

[Bill Kielb]

9 minutes ago, Brandon Franks said:

Okay so just so I don't mess it up again-

 

Inside the copper connector it should go-

 

(Top of copper)

Screw

Element connection

Relay wire

(Bottom of copper)

Yes, very nice, you have it. And as I said these connectors do wear out, especially element groups that draw higher amperage. The better they are made up, the longer they last. As they heat up the heat adds more energy (electrons bouncing around randomly) which increases the resistance slightly which makes them heat more which increases the resistance more .......... all while increasing the voltage drop across the connector more and more. It’s called thermal runaway and is a cascading failure.

so the lesson with these is make them up absolutely as good as you can.  Bright clean well twisted wire trapped neatly and tightly, occasionally check tightness as they will loosen through use. Doing that will ensure they last a long time and you will not waste kiln power in heated connections.

[Brandon Franks]

3 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said:

Yes, very nice, you have it. And as I said these connectors do wear out, especially element groups that draw higher amperage. The better they are made up, the longer they last. As they heat up the heat adds more energy (electrons bouncing around randomly) which increases the resistance slightly which makes them heat more which increases the resistance more .......... all while increasing the voltage drop across the connector more and more. It’s called thermal runaway and is a cascading failure.

so the lesson with these is make them up absolutely as good as you can.  Bright clean well twisted wire trapped neatly and tightly, occasionally check tightness as they will loosen through use. Doing that will ensure they last a long time and you will not waste kiln power in heated connections.

Thanks for that, I never even considered I could have been installing them wrong.

 

Now that wire, its probably shot, right?

[Bill Kielb]

10 minutes ago, Brandon Franks said:

Thanks for that, I never even considered I could have been installing them wrong.

 

Now that wire, its probably shot, right?

Cut it back an inch or two to clean strands. Both the connectors and wire ends will oxidize and anneal over time so replacing and cutting back the worst is good practice. This is something that generally happens over years so normal maintenance.  @Brandon Franks I should add that folding these  neatly and twisting tight then inserting can be helpful as AC travels on the skin of the wire and the amount of contact surface is key to this connection. Neatly is the operative word here.

[Brandon Franks]

7 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said:

Cut it back an inch or two to clean strands. Both the connectors and wire ends will oxidize and anneal over time so replacing and cutting back the worst is good practice. This is something that generally happens over years so normal maintenance.

Okay, sweet.

 

Thanks, Bill!

[Bill Kielb]

15 minutes ago, Brandon Franks said:

Okay, sweet.

 

Thanks, Bill!

I have to laugh, at one time we had several who asked for a diagnostic video to which me made a sort of ok one. The interesting issue is the failure I found was exactly yours, same spot in the kiln, Cone arts. The kilns in the studio had well over 1000 firings on them each with little maintenance. I really liked those kilns maintenance and all. Workhorses for sure. Anyway, bad video below but might give you some ideas about using an infrared thermometer just to check on things. Looking at this, Should have done a close up of the connections!

 

[Brandon Franks]

On 4/11/2020 at 1:53 PM, Bill Kielb said:

I have to laugh, at one time we had several who asked for a diagnostic video to which me made a sort of ok one. The interesting issue is the failure I found was exactly yours, same spot in the kiln, Cone arts. The kilns in the studio had well over 1000 firings on them each with little maintenance. I really liked those kilns maintenance and all. Workhorses for sure. Anyway, bad video below but might give you some ideas about using an infrared thermometer just to check on things. Looking at this, Should have done a close up of the connections!

 

I just replaced the floor element, but I need to do a bisque tomorrow.  Since it is just the floor element, do you think it's alright to fire it for the first time with my bisque load instead of doing an empty firing with it?

 

[Bill Kielb]

9 minutes ago, Brandon Franks said:

I just replaced the floor element, but I need to do a bisque tomorrow.  Since it is just the floor element, do you think it's alright to fire it for the first time with my bisque load instead of doing an empty firing with it?

 

If you want it to last longest then first firing is empty and builds an oxide layer that extends the life of the element. Bisque firings are hard on elements from a corrosive standpoint but not so tough because the temperature is fairly low. Realistically very few people follow the kanthal suggestion of prefiring and still get decent life on their elements. I get it potters need to fire a load to be productive with their time. Many do not prefire nor have the time to.

Kanthal has a nice pdf that details a suggested first firing, maybe download it for future.

[Brandon Franks]

On 4/15/2020 at 2:32 PM, Bill Kielb said:

If you want it to last longest then first firing is empty and builds an oxide layer that extends the life of the element. Bisque firings are hard on elements from a corrosive standpoint but not so tough because the temperature is fairly low. Realistically very few people follow the kanthal suggestion of prefiring and still get decent life on their elements. I get it potters need to fire a load to be productive with their time. Many do not prefire nor have the time to.

Kanthal has a nice pdf that details a suggested first firing, maybe download it for future.

I just had this happen again 

 

I opened up the control box, just as a precaution, didn't notice anything wrong, just wanted to double check everything, and the top thermocouple piece had burned out. I quickly shut the power, got some wire cutters and fixed the problem, only lost about 100^f worth of heat too, and just shut the kiln back on.

 

Am I doing something wrong? The element piece was sticking out like a half inch from where the wire meets the copper bit (should have been cut, forgot to do that when I went in and tightened everything), but it was fastened down correctly.

[Bill Kielb]

1 hour ago, Brandon Franks said:

I just had this happen again 

 

I opened up the control box, just as a precaution, didn't notice anything wrong, just wanted to double check everything, and the top thermocouple piece had burned out. I quickly shut the power, got some wire cutters and fixed the problem, only lost about 100^f worth of heat too, and just shut the kiln back on.

 

Am I doing something wrong? The element piece was sticking out like a half inch from where the wire meets the copper bit (should have been cut, forgot to do that when I went in and tightened everything), but it was fastened down correctly.

Nope just tight, tight tight. On the larger cone arts the top set was loaded  to I think 20 amps and it just needed attention. My temperature gun was a super handy thing to use. My conclusion was that connection just was not rated sufficiently for the load. A bit of a disappointment for an otherwise nice kiln in my view. If I kept an eye on it and occasionally tightened it they were fine. Good catch!

[Brandon Franks]

11 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said:

Nope just tight, tight tight. On the larger cone arts the top set was loaded  to I think 20 amps and it just needed attention. My temperature gun was a super handy thing to use. My conclusion was that connection just was not rated sufficiently for the load. A bit of a disappointment for an otherwise nice kiln in my view. If I kept an eye on it and occasionally tightened it they were fine. Good catch!

I replace the copper bit about 2 hours ago, and the new one is already starting to burn. I don't know whats going on here. Im going to wait until it hits the peak temp - should be less than an hour, then shut the kiln off as it falls to my crystal growing temp. Should give me an hour to see what's happening. 

(pictures are of the new copper piece.)

 

*addition*

I have one more copper piece, and another ceramic insulator. I will replace both as soon  as my fall to growing temp begins. 

(I know the insulator isn't the issue, but it is burnt now)

[Bill Kielb]

Yeah, smoked already. Interesting on the other side of the element is fine with the same load so this thing is higher resistance. Looks like you don’t have a bunch of element to work with either. Just gotta do your best. The problem with this is it heats, expands,  corrodes which makes it heat more, etc...... I used to tighten them very tight btw and having them as close to the kiln as possible was not a plus as it was absolutely the hottest there. Also I quit trimming them super tight as if I left an inch it acted as a heat sink and kept things just a little cooler.

[Brandon Franks]

1 minute ago, Bill Kielb said:

Yeah, smoked already. Interesting in the other side of the element is fine with the same load so this thing is higher resistance. Looks like you don’t have a bunch of element to work with either. Just gotta do your best. The problem with this is it heats, expands,  corrodes which makes it heat more, etc...... I used to tighten them very tight btw and having them as close to the kiln as possible was not a plus as it was absolutely the hottest there. Also I quit trimming them super tight as if I left an inch it acted as a heat sink and kept things just a little cooler.

I think the element is pushed into the insulator a bit too, I may be able to get another 1/8th or 1/4 of an inch of element wire.

 

Do you think this is something I should contact ConeArt about? That new one smoked in less than an hour, I don't know any reason why that would happen so fast, its pretty tight,

[Bill Kielb]

It’s telling us it’s not great so is that because the element end is corroded or the wire end or both. Cleanup with some light sand paper maybe in order then trim back the wire and reconnect.. I believe given sufficient temperature the elements oxidize and are protected by that oxide coating. Probably need to polish the end nicely and remake your connection. Even a neat folded wire connection will give you more surface area connection. Looks like if you could make it look like it’s mate on the other end you will have success.

I really am disappointed in these connections though.For the average user this is just hard to achieve.