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Msheffield

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Posts posted by Msheffield

  1. Need advice on electrical for new used Bailey kiln - extension cable or no?

    in Equipment Use and Repair

    Posted

    1 hour ago, Bill Kielb said:

    It usually helps with the temperature aspect a buch.  When we have failing main bus equipment often a fan extends the life temporarily until new busses can be fabricated, scheduled and installed. For kilns, leaving the element tale a bit longer to be more in an airstream, or some splices are just larger and a better heatsink and can be a passive solution for those one or two that fail prematurely.

    The cooling needs to take place during the firing though, not so much after.

    Oh... and I had to cut my tails shorter than I would have liked, so that probably didn't help. I'll look into the fan idea. Thank you for the info :)

  2. Need advice on electrical for new used Bailey kiln - extension cable or no?

    in Equipment Use and Repair

    Posted

    30 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said:

    For aluminum to copper or brass it is mostly just a function of the aluminum. Your element connections are brass copper and nichrome (or similar) so a good variety of properties all smashed together. Environment is a significant factor (high humidity.  It may sound silly but larger connections with more mass and area to air cool generally perform better than smaller lighter connections with a smaller heatsink capacity. So temperature is a significant accelerant as well. Often connections in kilns are not cooled well so maybe the top hottest connection corrodes first because of the updraft cooling.

    So my observance, environment #1 (hard to control) and keeping the connections as cool as possible definitely helps.

     

    Hm... would it be worth running a little fan under the wiring box to help it cool faster after firing? 

  4. Need advice on electrical for new used Bailey kiln - extension cable or no?

    in Equipment Use and Repair

    Posted

    On 9/20/2024 at 5:25 PM, Bill Kielb said:

    Yes best case aluminum to copper terminations require regular maintenance and often compound (anti oxidant paste) along with maintenance to ensure the connections remain safe, tight and well connected. If you use compound, they are made specifically for the metal in the wire and termination. Codes usually dictate this specifically. Aluminum wire must also be derated so in the table below #6 wire copper = 55 amps @ 60c terminal rating and #6 Aluminum is derated to carry ONLY 40 amps @ 60c terminal rating.

    Aluminum and kilns, strongly discouraged.

    IMG_4899.jpeg

    Very interesting, and good to know. Do you think this might have also led to accelerated corrosion in my brass element connectors? Several times in the past two years I've had to take everything apart and sand it down, because they corrode so quickly. Might also just be climate, but I noticed the same black residue on them as in the outlet. 

  7. Need advice on electrical for new used Bailey kiln - extension cable or no?

    in Equipment Use and Repair

    Posted

    Hi you all, just an update (after a long hiatus of not doing pottery or getting anything wired up) that I think I figured out my problem with my older kiln. I tested the voltage this morning, and it was 238 or 239 instead of 240 (but up from 226 some months ago--maybe a summer voltage drop I've read about??). Then I opened the outlet box and the back part was disconnected and crumbling, and you can see the burn marks on the wires. I will go get a new outlet box today, but my question is whether or not I need to replace the wires, or if there is something I can wrap them with (electrical tape??), or if there is anything I should take into consideration. My dad suggested that I get a 60 amp outlet box rather than the current 50, just to be safe. 

    I still want to wire up the bigger cone art kiln, but for the sake of time, I want to get the little paragon functional again in the meantime. 

     

     

  8. Need advice on electrical for new used Bailey kiln - extension cable or no?

    in Equipment Use and Repair

    Posted

    1 hour ago, Bill Kielb said:

    Hmm, definitely a cone art kiln (says so). Definitely marked cone 10& 10.3 Kw @240 Volts. Still curious about the lid and bottom element. I believe Tucker added the bottom element to many of his kilns to improve performance.

    43 amps - Minimum breaker size 1.25 X 43 = 53.75 amps, max breaker 1.5 X 43  = 64.5 amps, so 55 Amp breaker minimum. And 60 amp maximum. 60 A likely best choice especially if upgraded to today’s elements assuming they fit. ( another reason it would be nice to know if the bottom element was added since)

    This is old so I would say likely 60c terminal design or 75 c max so # 6 (copper) regardless and the speculation - this kiln now days is likely 48 amp element set so it probably needs that energy to get a decent cone 10 rating and longevity. Replacement with the new higher wattage elements likely desirable anyway, so I would design this to accommodate for the near future …… wherever the placement ends up.

    I think you need to figure out the out of tolerance voltage regardless. If it is  low at the mains you are starting off at about a 10% deficit. Hopefully just a bad meter used to measure, but could indicate a poor connection or worn main breaker or even  overhead splice going bad somewhere along the way. Should be able to spot it with a non contact infrared along the way or this should be easy for an electrician to track down.

    I think I would treat it as if it will someday be a 48 amp kiln. Cone art is still in business, a call or email could clarify your options.

    Oh right, I forgot about those--there is an element on the floor, yes, and I'll have a look at the lid in the morning. 

    Good to know about the terminal and the higher new element rating. Definitely upgrading the breaker. 

    Yeah, my voltimeter is a cheap one, but I also know I'm getting low voltage because my current kiln is firing very slowly in spite of a change in elements not super long ago. I've checked and cleaned all connections, and it's still having trouble, so I'm suspecting something with the outlet wiring. 

  10. Need advice on electrical for new used Bailey kiln - extension cable or no?

    in Equipment Use and Repair

    Posted

    4 hours ago, Dick White said:

    There is some confusion between 43 and 48. Maybe the stamped "8" looks like a "3"? To confirm, what is the wattage listed on the plate. Ohms Law math will indicate the correct amperage.

    That was my intial thought, that it just looked like a 3. But the wattage is 10.3 kw, and my electrician neighbor came over yesterday and calculated that as 52.5 amps. He seemed to think my current setup would be okay for the new kiln, but I wanted to check with you guys since you have a history working with kilns specifically. 

  11. Need advice on electrical for new used Bailey kiln - extension cable or no?

    in Equipment Use and Repair

    Posted

    8 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

    I see 48 amps for the round 2327, so I believe 48 amps is correct. Breaker sizing: 125% minimum breaker is a 60 amp breaker, 150% maximum is a 72 amp breaker. So 60 amp breaker. Wire sizing is limited by terminal temperature. Breakers terminals are rated 75c these days so a number 6 - 75c or greater appears to fill the bill. The ampacity is limited by the 75c column. Using heavier gauge wire is really good practice  if for no other reason to minimize voltage drop and maximize heating in your kiln rather than heating in your wires.

    Cone art used to make these kilns for Bailey - your circuit diagram is likely http://coneartkilnsshop.com//wp-content/uploads/Wiring_Diagrams/pottery/BXGX_2327D_1240rev21Aug23.pdf

    Bailey specs I found on their website  below.

     

    IMG_4732.jpeg

    That was what initially confused me as well--the modern TL-2327 model DOES use 48 amps. The seller bought my kiln in the 90's and said the model was "PL"-2327, so that's something I need to confirm with Bailey. I calculated though that even if my kiln does pull 43 amps, 125% is still 53.75 amps, and I probably still have to upgrade. 

  12. Need advice on electrical for new used Bailey kiln - extension cable or no?

    in Equipment Use and Repair

    Posted

    9 hours ago, Hulk said:

    The online wire calculators I'm seeing all spec #6 for 43 amps continuous - even a short run, e.g. ten feet

    I'm curious what the wire experts will recommend for 43 amp rated kiln.
    How long a run in feet?

    I pulled 6-3
    The kiln doesn't require it (three wires only), however, if ever in future something did require 120v, the spare/extra wire is there*.
    The vendor** price is less now, $3.86/; it was $4.10/ft.
    We bought sixty feet. The shipping was $30.60

    Their price on #4 ("#4-3C THHN-PVC Tray Cable with Ground") is $5.59 today

    *We had to rewire our son's wellhouse to run the 120v UV appliance.
    We put in a light and an outlet while we were at it.
    The 240v well pump requires three wires only. Half the run had four wires, half did not. We weren't happy.

    ** Wire & Cable Your Way: Electrical Wire By the Foot (wireandcableyourway.com)

    I think I need something like 10-16 feet of wire. I'm tempted to just install a 60 amp breaker in a new slot and put the kiln right on the other side of the wall that contains the breaker box... It would be inside the house, but it came with a vent, so I could just run it a short distance outside. 

    When you say you pulled 6-3, what do you mean? That you originally had 6-3 or went to it? 

  13. Need advice on electrical for new used Bailey kiln - extension cable or no?

    in Equipment Use and Repair

    Posted

    5 hours ago, HenryBurlingame said:

    For continuous loads a breaker has to be rated for 125% of the continuous load. So you have to use a 60 amp breaker for your 48amp kiln. A 50amp breaker would probably trip. While 8awg wire can technically handle 50amps, changing the breaker to 60 amp without upgrading the wire to 6awg would not be to code and would be a fire hazard as Neil said.

    It sucks to upgrade the wiring, but you HAVE to do it. I just upgraded from 6awg to 4awg in my studio for a new kiln and right now copper wire prices are through the roof and they are going up every week. My local hardware store had to put fencing around the wire area and now keeps it under lock and key. Total for just materials cost me over $10/ft and I had to run it around the side of our house and out to our barn omg lol.

    Dang, I know, the wire is ridiculous! Thanks for your confirmation. I misread the kiln plate, and it's actually only 43 amps, which is not a huge difference, but I wonder if that would mean I don't have to upgrade. 

  14. Need advice on electrical for new used Bailey kiln - extension cable or no?

    in Equipment Use and Repair

    Posted

    7 hours ago, neilestrick said:

    To meet code the kiln will need to be on a 60 amp breaker. It will need 6 gauge wire. Smaller wire will be a fire hazard. No extension cord, no adapter- neither is safe to use with a kiln.  Swap out the outlet for a 3 prong. Definitely check out the voltage drop issue. Getting 226 volts instead of 240 is a really big deal for a kiln. The added insulation isn't going to make such a big difference that a large voltage drop won't have an effect.

    Thanks for your input Neil! I misread the plate--it's actually 43 amps. I had seen the newer model online as being 48 amps. Does that change anything, or would you still recommend going to 6-gauge and a 60 amp breaker? 

  15. Need advice on electrical for new used Bailey kiln - extension cable or no?

    in Equipment Use and Repair

    Posted · Edited by Msheffield

    Hi you all, I just purchased a used Bailey PL-2327, 240 V, 48 AMP, single phase kiln in good condition. It has a 3-prong dryer plug, and I'm currently wired for a 4-prong dryer plug. I'm going to upgrade my breaker from 50 to 60 amps, and the wire going from my switch box to the outlet is 8-gauge, so hopefully that's enough. 

    Part of my debate is whether to use an 8-gauge cable going from my house kiln outlet up to my barn so that I could have it up there, but I've always heard not to use an extension cord because of power loss over distance and possible fires? My dad is wondering why it wouldn't work if the electric wires coming into the switch box are already traveling a distance from the telephone pole. I already seem to be having some voltage loss at the outlet (113-ish instead of 120), which I'm going to investigate, but I definitely don't want to make it worse than that. This kiln is double-insulated, so even with some lower voltage, I think it will still do better than my other kiln. 

    Another question is whether to try to replace the 3-prong plug with a 4-prong, since I've read that's safer, or to get a 3-to-4 prong adaptor. I do have a spare 4-prong dryer plug which I could potentially hook up to the kiln, but it is 8-gauge, and the existing kiln plug is 6-gauge. The kiln is rated to Cone 10, but I plan to use it for 5/6 since my clay and glazes are that temp. 

    Any thoughts are much-appreciated! 

     

    EDIT: It is actually 43 amps,  not 48. I misread the plate. 

  17. Possible to disconnect kiln sitter and continue firing?

    in Equipment Use and Repair

    Posted

    On 7/11/2023 at 4:33 AM, neilestrick said:

    Not that I recommend firing without some sort of safety shutoff system, but if the sensing rod and cone supports are still there, you can just cram a piece of kiln shelf in there in place of a cone. Or, tape the shutoff weight up so it can't fall and kick out the power button. If you do the tape method you can remove the Sitter tube and fill the hole with fiber or a soft brick plug. It is possible to wire the power cord directly to the switches, but you'll need a terminal block to do that, which is what the Sitter is so there's no good reason to get rid of it. Ultimately you need some sort of shutoff, so it would be worth fixing it.

    I am always around with multiple timers on when firing, so I'm not so worried about lack of shutoff mechanism, but I see your point about the terminal. Maybe I'll fix it down the road! Thanks for your input. 

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