jsmoove

Thanks, that is useful info. I wonder with what he said, maybe if there is more silver in the emulsion it'll work better? (Ag-plus is discontinued) You may very well get to it before me, I still have to make real life ceramic contacts that will let me use their kilns....and I'm a beginner.

Regarding liquid light, there appears to be one person who was able to fire it on glass: "As part of my PhD research I have been using liquid light on cast glass with some success using chemistry from Rockland Colloid. I have used various varnishes as a sub but found the best results from cleaning the glass properly and applying the emulsion direct. I have done this mainly because I am then firing the glass in a kiln. AG-Plus has a higher silver content and so is ideal for firing but regular liquid light works just fine too." From: https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/liquid-light-on-glass.231705/ https://www.photo.net/gallery/592725#//Sort-Newest/All-Categories/All-Time/Page-1 I don't know the temperatures he used though. This is 2006.

Apparently there was a photosensitive concentrate made by Gaffer discontinued in 2005. I've learnt that Gaffer is owned by Reichenbach, so maybe there is a chance that they still can make it. (unlikely, but you never know?) I'm assuming concentrate means dry materials. - So Gaffer's current stock for photosensitive glass is stock that they had before the switchover. Reichenbach owns the brand now and technically will be making it since they are testing recipes apparently. Originally Reichenbach did actually carry photosensitive glass, they had the gold, copper and yellow. This is old info: https://imgur.com/a/M37Ojbs @PeterH I had also come across sodium silicate and wondered if that would be a good binder. I think im in too deep here without firsthand experience. As you say, to test out fusing frit first. Alot of factors! (that makes 4 F's)

I glazed over the ceramic stains and oxide washes part, I think I understand now. Yes, I think I will look now into what is available in my area. I like the idea of starting with cyanotype as it's easy to obtain and try out. And your thoughts on photosensitive glass as a powder? @PeterH

@PeterHThanks for breaking this down. I think im confused about the pigment part (#4) How do we know what pigments survive the heat? I think my question for the cyanotype is, at what point/temp would the iron actually be fused to glass? I think you're saying it's more trial and error correct? What is the ballpark? I'm mostly confused about the fusing process, if I'm after an image that is completely permanent on glass that will never come off, is fusing materials what im after? And #5, I am also curious to know if anyone has tried it...mostly since I don't own a kiln, so I want to understand what would be the most foolproof technique before an attempt. Curious to hear your second post on the photosensitive glass too...to me it seems the least toxic to work with, but the most challenging as you say. Unfortunately not much literature on this.

@PeterHI was not aware! So I guess the decomposition point of both would be too low for firing? I wonder if there is a way to search "light sensitive" with high decomposition points for materials through fishersci msds's? Going back to old territory....for cyanotype: what is the reason it can be fired to ceramic but not to glass? When the iron is left over? The leftover iron's decomposition point is quite high right? What temperature would the iron decompose for cyanotype? "Although it's main light sensitive constituent is iron, the iron is fugitive at higher temps. I've not yet tested it's high limit but at bisque it comes off a nice toasty brown." @blackthorn

I had mentioned diazidostilbene earlier: https://www.phototypie.fr/en/reactifs-photosensibles/14-diazidostilbene.html which is green. As for heating it, the msds is in french and says that its explosive. But maybe its ok? No idea. Checking out your links!

Apparently Spruce Pine batch carried a photosensitive concentrate in 2003: http://warmglass.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=692&p=4784&hilit=photosensitive#p4784

Thanks everyone. I'm not sure what I'll go with, but I'm down to experiment. The heat resistant adhesive seems to be the main issue for a liquid emulsion. I don't have any experience with dichromates, where do you get them? (pyrofoto was a dichromate) and I've read it "is more for high-contrast line drawings or images, not continuous tone" so would any dichromate be the same? I guess thats what I'm wondering about. The decals look great, but yeah....no go for wrapping complex 3D surfaces. @Callie Beller Diesel The cost is certainly high to find out if it works, (would need that glass crusher too) im hoping to eventually hear from the lady who wrote the phd (contacted her on linkedin)

Whoops, for some reason I didn't get these messages! @PeterH For photographic resolutions I see: http://ceramicsresearch.ca/web/?p=1834 and this does look pretty great. This is definitely a direction I've considered, and if a liquid emulsion is not possible this might have to be the route. I think for what im aiming for though, it needs to be liquid. Like if I wanted to coat weird curved glass shapes that flat paper can not get into or around in one swoop, unless there is a way to make it super flexible? I dig the magnetic strips, those are really cool. I need to look into iron oxide as an emulsion process. I think iron oxide can only be used as a toner or dusting on method in a photographic process, probably not part of a photosensitive emulsion itself, but I don't know for sure. @Callie Beller Diesel I'm mostly curious about whether it can be crushed or not, if the photosensitivity is lost? Gaffer told me directly: 'In theory, it can be crushed and applied cold/then exposed and brought to the proper temperatures for exposure. Our glass was formulated for the glass blowing process specifically, and our technical write up stops at that so anything beyond that would require research and extensive testing." I'm actually in BC, but if Color Fusion carries them, thats great, at least somewhere in Canada does.

- I just wanted to add one more thing to the discussion, that the product "Pyrofoto" was the main product for this kind of thing, it is a dichromate, which is now banned in Europe. https://www.rockaloid.com/_pdf/instructions/Pyrofoto inst.pdf The product is now discontinued from Rockaloid, but can still be bought third party. I would have used this otherwise, but will eventually be out of supply which kindof sucks. The alternative to dichromates is now: https://www.phototypie.fr/en/reactifs-photosensibles/14-diazidostilbene.html but this is explosive under heat. I think diazidostilbene is actually used with the carbon process too. So yeah, I've been looking for the alternative to this, something that I can coat. There is also "Selectacolor" by Rockaloid, which I think is also a dichromate, so maybe this is an option even if toxic(in europe)...not sure, im not a glass guy, is adequate ventilation all you need? https://www.rockaloid.com/_pdf/msds/Selectacolor.pdf I do still like the idea of using crushed photosensitive glass though. EDIT: 8/1/2021 Hi Pyrofoto was our only product that can be fired to make a lasting image on ceramic. Liquid Light can be used to make a b&w image on ceramic and Selectacolor is for porous surfaces. Regards, Rockland Colloid www.rockaloid.com

I've heard of CMC too....namely this: https://www.modelingglass.com/product-info (the liquid medium portion) 900c I think, What binder can be used to host a light sensitive emulsion for fired glass. Which binder is going to keep the photo intact? Gum arabic, gelatin, cmc...? I don't know either. I haven't actually seen any examples of a fired image on glass on the whole internet, so it must be tricky. @blackthorn I'd be very interested to see the final product! Carbon seems the most involved, but the images are stunning. The folks over at photrio (where I came from) would also be very interested seeing your process by the way. For carbon processes I had read: https://enamellers.net/enamel-photography/ and https://www.vidimus.org/issues/issue-126/feature/ which mention the "dusting on process" using carbon I think. Sounds very involved!

@blackthornI failed to mention an important aspect of what I wish to do, im hoping to leave the glass piece outdoors for an extended period of time. I did watch Joseph McAllisters video there above, the resolution looks amazing. But I worry about the cyanotype chemicals (or other emulsion chemicals) eventually coming off the glass years down the line. With firing, it'd help keep it from leeching, like the photoceramic photographs on gravestones. So I wonder if photosensitive glass is literally the only way to go here since I'm wanting to use glass as the substrate and not on ceramic?

@PeterHI wonder what exactly the product is made of? Is it cellulose that is left on the glass? I have seen this before, but I had assumed you could only use your printer...I'm after curved, (application would be curved glass objects that aren't necessarily cylindrical) and would like to use something photosensitive, to get as high of a resolution as possible. So you're saying to use the fusing paper to transfer the emulsion to the glass?

@blackthorn Thankyou so much for sharing this...I've been wondering forever what cyanotype looks like fired. I had never seen any actual photographic examples. My original quest actually started off with wondering about cyanotype actually, but I was dissuaded by the fact that the ferricyanide portion releases cyanide gas. I'm assuming you have adequate ventilation for this matter though? In reality, any working higher resolution photoceramic method where I can use a contact negative like you have is what im after. The thing is, yes, I'm wanting to do it on glass specifically. Bonding a photographic emulsion to glass to make it permanent forever. I've been told that cyanotype would just burn away off of glass, is this true? Is it the same problem with not having an adhesive that lasts through higher temperatures like the photosensitive glass? Since gelatin just burns away. I don't know what the decomposition points are for potassium ferricyanide and ammonium ferric citrate. Cyanotype would be a much more cost effective option in this scenario....if there is a way to fire it to glass, that would be amazing. -Liquid light apparently does not work, as it just burns off the glass.

Thankyou, this is very informative. Hmm I see, so there are definitely a few issues with the idea. I guess thats why it hasn't really been done, other than in that phd paper. I'm not actually sure making a powdered form is possible without flaming it first, im not really clear on that...the paper is 671 pages! I'd like to reach out to the author, but there is no contact info unfortunately. And the adhesive issue too. Maybe there are inorganic adhesives that would work? The reason I had thought to skip the glass blowing was that I figured it would save a ton of time (and cost), since you'd only be using an electric kiln or microwave kiln(?). Which is probably more accessible for photographers without glass blowing experience. But it might be the only option after all.

Ah, im assuming its a frit-maker then? Like: https://artistryinglass.on.ca/FRIT-MAKER.html Then I guess you sift out the powder. I want to say, ive never done anything with glass....im coming from the photography side, so this is all completely new to me. So if the adhesive were to burn away before it reaches 575c, the glass powder would just fall off? (if curved) Gelatin decomposes at 200c. Too low? More or less, I would just need to find an adhesive that survive past 575c? Even though the practical application for photographers would be a flat piece of glass....I'm looking to do it on curved pieces too. Like a glass bottle. I had imagined coating the emulsion on with a brush, like a paint, so a thin layer...like other photographic emulsions, liquid light, pyrofoto...etc. This is me assuming that liquid light itself wouldn't work. I've seen no examples out there of liquid light on glass kiln fired. -Obviously though the bonus of photosensitive glass powder would be that you wouldn't have to develop it with a liquid, and that the image is formed within the glass and not on. Long shot question as well, are there places that carry gaffer glass that can crush their own stock rods? Because that would make everything way easier for experimentation. (I'm in Canada)

I'm wondering if anyone here has any experience using Gaffer Glass's photosensitive ruby rods. Seen here: http://www.gafferglassusa.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=100 My question is about crushing the rod. In this thesis on photosensitive ruby https://espace.curtin.edu.au/handle/20.500.11937/1840 they crush the rod into pate de verre and into powder as well. The thing is, nowhere is it mentioned in the thesis what type of machine they use to crush the rod into powder. I'm wondering 2 things: #1 How do you crush the photosensitive rod into very fine powder? What machine is used? It'd also have to be done in the dark. #2 Can the photosensitive powder be used with a binder to apply onto ceramics cold, like an emulsion? Expose, then fire. This is the main line of my thinking. I specifically would want to coat glass, with photosensitive glass. Skipping the glass blowing step altogether. Possible?