buying clay in bulk, dry vs wet

[NancyE]

Hello my friends,

I am considering buying 500-1000lbs of clay and having it shipped.  Since I asked about whether it could be sent dry to save on shipping cost (and I was told it actually cost $0.03 more), the estimate I was sent is for "DRY".  I have to drive hundreds of miles to pick up clay, so shipping is not unreasonable, especially considering time and gas prices.  Researching how much per pound of the processed clay we buy runs from 25 -50 pounds per 100 (please correct me if I am wrong!),  is it possible that I would be buying up to 25-50% more clay if I buy it per pound dry?  The unit price was $0.41/pound which by my calculation would be $5.125 or $6.56 (depending on amount of water added for a 25 pound bag of clay if I processed the clay myself.  Which I am happy to do BTW.... sounds like famous last words to me too.   If I'm right, enjoy my revelation with me, if I'm wrong I appreciate your kind wisdom.

Sincerely,

Nancy E (dba Barefoot Arts)

[Mark C.]

I suggest unless you have power mixing equipment say like a peter pugger you forget the whole dry thing.

The factor you never spoke about (gas .travel, dry vs wet costs) was your time and a quaility clay product at the end of your labors . Clay makers mix the clay ,take the air out of the clay and pug and bag and box your clay-you cannot even ever come close to doing this yourself and think you are saving a thing. Especially money

now if you have a lot of power equipment  for clay making and tons of FREE time then lets talk more

Now its it dry slip casting clay thats another story but you never mentioned slip.

 

PS I have bought dry clay in 50# sacks to add to anothrer clay body (custom blend) and what a pain-I donated most of that dry clay to an art center as a tax write off decades later

Edited August 18, 2022 by Mark C.

[neilestrick]

If you're not set up with a good mixer, pugger, and appropriate ventilation, then don't mess with mixing clay. And even if you are set up, it's not worth the time and hassle. If you don't have a good de-airing pugger, then don't even think about it, because the quality will not be good if you plan to throw with it. Leave mixing to the people who do it for a living, and spend your time making pots instead. The cost of clay is cheap in the big picture, and your time is worth a lot more than whatever you'd save.

[Min]

8 hours ago, NancyE said:

is it possible that I would be buying up to 25-50% more clay if I buy it per pound dry?  The unit price was $0.41/pound which by my calculation would be $5.125 or $6.56 (depending on amount of water added for a 25 pound bag of clay if I processed the clay myself. 

Ready to use wet clay will contain around 20 - 23% water. 

[oldlady]

nancy, all the above and one other thought.  look into the savings in buying clay above the price change.  my clay changes price at 500 and 1000 pounds.  if i could store and use a ton, 2000 pounds i would save more.  check your clay prices.

[NancyE]

I have a used mixer that I believe I can make work, appears to be an old Soldner (style?) mixer.  Just now, can't get the motor to slide on the square tube that loosens and tightens the belt to the machine.  Looked good for $200.00.  I also have a very nice Peter Pugger that de-airs because otherwise the whole idea would be as unreasonable as everyone suggests.  To buy clay, I have to drive hundreds of miles which is just too much in both time and gas expense.  I have the space to store, and I will use the clay.   I end up buying large amounts of wet clay and storing it until it begins to dry unevenly.  What I don't look forward to is cleaning out the mixed clay by leaning over the mixer, and using the small 4" pugs from my Peter Pugger.  It also appears that the clay I prefer is no longer available even for a 500 mile round trip. So, I'm thinking I 'm going to do it.  Maybe.  Thank you everyone.

And thank you Min, 25-50% sounded excessive and did not jive with what I did with my reclaim.

Nancy E

[Mark C.]

I mixed 3 tons once in a soldner mixer once darn near killed me unloading it all. Ran it thru a bluebird no airing pug mill.-clay was short for years.

I learned my lesson-I commend you on going ahead with the school of hard knocks-I was 30 years old then-I hope you are in your 20s

That soldner mixer is a back killer at least for me other may love it

On the clay getting hard deal I have a master tip for you

Use a small round 2-3 inch round throwing sponge  (this is so you can ameasre the same amount every time but submerging it ino a bucket of water.

Now unbox the clay and open the plastic bags-depending on how dry they are its one or two or three squeezes of that full sponge (two is usllay fine) retie the bag and drip them into the box and put a arrow on it.Fip the box everty day for 4 dasys to cover all sides of the longways pugs inside. Then store-this clay will now be even weteness once agin within a week . No to bother with underwater or wet towels. I have done tons this way of porcealin which is harder than most Bodies to rewet. I bought 12 tons for years once a year and some got hard. 

My clay  is 13 hours away one way so your clay seem close but what do I know.

Oldlady said it above -buy in bulk and store it in a cool dry place.The price breaks add up. 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Mark C.

[Pres]

I store my clay outside in PA, It is under my two sea kayaks, on wooden risers I built to hold 2000lb at a time. A large tarp covers the whole deal and is replaced when it wears out. Even though I have padded the kayak rack and tie down the tarp the strong winds will wear a tarp out in 2 years. My clay is shipped boxed untied. I use 2000lb in about 2 years, and yet never have problems with the clay drying out so long as the boxes stay intact.

 

best,

Pres

[Mark C.]

Those cheap moving blankets over clay will also stabilize temps and slow down the drying

[Kelly in AK]

Keeping moist clay moist sounds like the real problem here. Easy solutions posted above.  

I dig and mix my own clay. Not counting digging, hauling, crushing, and sieving (if only all that could be done by faeries), it still isn’t economical. If you’re trying to save dollars look somewhere else. Having premixed moist clay delivered to your door is the pinnacle of economy. 

If, on the other hand, you share my mental disorder, one that is relieved only by making one’s own clay body, knock yourself out. You won’t need a health club membership, so you’ll  save a little money there. 

I wouldn’t discourage it if you have the right equipment, but will reiterate that it’s not economical to mix clay from raw materials until you’re doing at huge scale or have a very peculiar special body. I think everyone should try it once, then you can know. 

[Russ]

Hi NancyE

Well Ive been formulating and  mixing my own clay body for ever.. its just part of the potter lifestyle for me. I do have a large converted mixer that will mix about 200lbs at a time and then run it thru a pugmill. I enjoy the process and although its an all day affair to mis and pug 800lbs its therapeutic for me. And im still doing it in my 60's so it can be done.

[C.Banks]

The mixer I use can handle small batches and the pugmill I own is old and in need of repair.

The last few years I've been wedging up my small batches. I'm closer to 60 than thirty and thankfully I can still find the work exercise.

I enjoy making my own clay although I don't make tonnes at a time. I make enough to serve its purpose.

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by C.Banks

[neilestrick]

@NancyE Do you have any potter friends in your area that could go in on buying a full ton? The shipping cost would be much lower per pound, and you'd get the ton rate on the clay itself.

[Callie Beller Diesel]

On 8/20/2022 at 11:37 AM, NancyE said:

  What I don't look forward to is cleaning out the mixed clay by leaning over the mixer, and using the small 4" pugs from my Peter Pugger. 

We did this in college. I can confirm this is very hard on your body, and I was 23 the last time I did it. Soldner doesn’t seem to have believed in such frivolities as excess clothing or equipment ergonomics. Reaching into that barrel repeatedly to lift out heavy stuff in the name of lifestyle isn’t my jam: I don’t like mid to lower back pain. I agree with Kelly that it’s something you should do once, and decide from there if you want to keep doing it.

If it’s just down to money, you need to math out the costs vs benefits for your own situation.  While you’d be getting 20-23% more clay if you get dry mix, you’d be giving up the time in the form of days you’re taking to mix it. You’re also paying in terms of wear and tear on your body, especially your back. Does the unit price savings justify your added prep time and potential for injury? I’m not assuming the answer is no here. It might be a perfectly good, cost effective answer for you.

 How critical is that exact clay body to your work? Can it be substituted with something more easily sourced, or is it  just that you’re far away from everything?

If prepared clay drying out is a concern, Mark has mentioned in the past that he gets his supplier to mix half of his order a bit softer to counteract this. Does your supplier offer this as an option?

[PeterH]

On 8/20/2022 at 6:37 PM, NancyE said:

And thank you Min, 25-50% sounded excessive and did not jive with what I did with my reclaim.

Just for the record (as there are obviously bigger issues involved).

Assuming Min is right and wet clay contains 20-23% water -- and if dry clay contains none -- I think you should get 25-30% more clay per lb.

20/(100-20) = 0.25 = 25%  

23/(100-23) = 0.2987 ~30%

 

[neilestrick]

8 hours ago, PeterH said:

Just for the record (as there are obviously bigger issues involved).

Assuming Min is right and wet clay contains 20-23% water -- and if dry clay contains none -- I think you should get 25-30% more clay per lb.

20/(100-20) = 0.25 = 25%  

23/(100-23) = 0.2987 ~30%

 

This also assumes that the dry clay is the same cost per pound as the moist clay. When I worked for A.R.T., we charged more for dry mix because mixing and bagging dry clay was a much slower process for us than making moist clay.

[PeterH]

1 hour ago, neilestrick said:

This also assumes that the dry clay is the same cost per pound as the moist clay. When I worked for A.R.T., we charged more for dry mix because mixing and bagging dry clay was a much slower process for us than making moist clay.

Important practical point well worth emphasising, but I did say per lb.

[Min]

1 hour ago, neilestrick said:

This also assumes that the dry clay is the same cost per pound as the moist clay. When I worked for A.R.T., we charged more for dry mix because mixing and bagging dry clay was a much slower process for us than making moist clay.

From Nancy's first post it appears the dry mix is $0.03 lb more than pugged.

 

[neilestrick]

37 minutes ago, Min said:

From Nancy's first post it appears the dry mix is $0.03 lb more than pugged.

 

Totally missed that. At A.R.T. the price for dry was high enough that it negated any benefits of mixing it yourself.

[NancyE]

I appreciate everyone's experience and advice and I am proud to say I am still capable of learning.  Copious tenacity cannot completely compensate the fact that I am 65, short, "overweight" and arthritic.  I will order 1500 lbs pugged, deaired and deliciously ready for work.  Did I mention I am also mining local "wild" clay?  So I will still have the opportunity to learn to hate the mixer if I get it running.  At least with the wild clay I have permission to use the backhoe and stop with the 5 gal bucket at a time gathering. 

Nancy E

[JRagsdale]

On 8/21/2022 at 4:15 AM, Kelly in AK said:

Keeping moist clay moist sounds like the real problem here. Easy solutions posted above.  

I dig and mix my own clay. Not counting digging, hauling, crushing, and sieving (if only all that could be done by faeries), it still isn’t economical. If you’re trying to save dollars look somewhere else. Having premixed moist clay delivered to your door is the pinnacle of economy. 

If, on the other hand, you share my mental disorder, one that is relieved only by making one’s own clay body, knock yourself out. You won’t need a health club membership, so you’ll  save a little money there. 

I wouldn’t discourage it if you have the right equipment, but will reiterate that it’s not economical to mix clay from raw materials until you’re doing at huge scale or have a very peculiar special body. I think everyone should try it once, then you can know. 

Lol came on here to see where I could possibly buy dry clay and how economical it would really be and found someone who shares the same mental instability as me....Lol!  I laughed at that statement.  I dig my own as well and your right.  It is a lot of work but there's something about getting your hands in the process from the very beginning all the way through right?

[Mark C.]

4 hours ago, NancyE said:

I appreciate everyone's experience and advice and I am proud to say I am still capable of learning.  Copious tenacity cannot completely compensate the fact that I am 65, short, "overweight" and arthritic.  I will order 1500 lbs pugged, deaired and deliciously ready for work.  Did I mention I am also mining local "wild" clay?  So I will still have the opportunity to learn to hate the mixer if I get it running.  At least with the wild clay I have permission to use the backhoe and stop with the 5 gal bucket at a time gathering. 

Nancy E

Price breaks are usually at 500, then 1,000 then a bigger break always at 2,000 (1 ton)