(not) drying problems

[Pyewackette]

There's been a changing of the guard at the studio where I've been working, which is mostly a good thing, but there have been some perhaps unintended consequences.  A whole lot of studio equipment has gone totally AWOL, including nearly all the ware boards, a lot of tools and misc items, which is one issue - but worse, the clay body has changed significantly.  I don't know exactly what's going on but it is a lot wetter, nearly always seems short (though I'm no expert), and I have not been able to get a single item off the bat at the end of a 3 hour wheel session yet.  It was worse a few weeks ago but its still not "normal".  The person who used to do most of the work ordering and mixing isn't doing it any more (he wasn't getting paid for it, the person who WAS getting paid for it just didn't do it).  Also the new guy (replaced the retiring studio manager) ordered material from a different supplier because he didn't like the usual supplier's website.  So I'm guessing the confluence of a new person doing the work and perhaps subtly (perhaps not) different materials is at work, but I have to come up with a way to compensate in the meantime.  Keep in mind - few to no ware boards means we have been told to leave things on the (blue plastic) bats, and the wet possibly short clay is not drying well, or at all it seems sometimes, that way.  With the old clay body I could lift most things off the bat by the end of a 3 hour wheel session, except sometimes for the last thing I threw, and I could always get that off by the next day.  With the new clay body, even if we had ware boards, I have not been able to lift a single thing off sometimes even after TWO days and 5 or 6 hours uncovered.  The stuff acts weird (cracking, warping on the plastic bats we have to use as ware boards since the actual ware boards are mostly gone, sticking to said bat--wareboards, slumping/collapsing as its being extruded, etc) even for hand building.

So I have to cope with this.  My thoughts so far:

1) Run out to Home Despot and pick up a piece of 1/4" 3x5 hardiebacker and cut it up into ware boards of my own.  PROS - I love hardiebacker ware boards and cannot imagine a scenario that would lead to them warping under studio conditions.  CONS - I have to schlep them and They Weigh. CONSIDERATION - I'll likely only have to schlep them out a few at a time and then just keep recycling them, and only have to schlep back when not in use.

2) 6" hydrostone bats and small bat adapter.  PROS - I love hydrostone bats and they won't warp no matter how long I have to leave that very wet clay sitting on the bat in a plastic bag.  Really helps stuff to dry evenly, which is also an issue with this clay - it usually only SEEMS dry enough to trim, once you start it's still wet under a drier crust.  Items used to pop off the Hydrostone bats by themselves for me, though that was with normal clay, it at least ought to help with this stuff.  CONS - WAY to heavy for this ol' broke down person to schlep.  Too expensive IMO to leave sitting around an open studio even if I had storage space for them (which I don't/won't). I would worry about chipping or breaking them during schleppage.

3) get some $3 9" square Masonite bats. PROS - cheap, easily available, not a killer if they grow legs and walk.  CONS - I might not be able to get out there for a whole week to lift a pot off.  I'm pretty sure these will warp almost right away given they may have to sit there in a bag with wet clay on them for a whole week, or at least 4 to 5 days at best.  May bow under the weight of the pot.  CONSIDERATION - sliding the bat onto a ware board would minimize potential bowing, but you would still have to lift it enough to get it off the wheel head.

4) Get the StudioPro bat system and schlep it back and forth.  PROS - Medex, with grommeted bat pin holes that go all the way through.  The holder can be flipped.  Comes with 8 - 6" inserts.  There are finger holes cut so you can get the inserts in and out more easily.  Inserts can also be flipped.  Nowhere near as heavy as Hydrostone. More stable than Masonite bats eg won't bow under the weight of the pot.  CONS - heavier than Masonite bats and I would have to schlep both inserts and the holder part.  Probably subject to the same issues of sitting for too long in a bag with very wet clay on it for up to a week.

5) this is my 2nd favorite idea after Hydrostone bats - cut some 9"ish square bats out of the Hardiebacker.  PROS - I've used hardiebacker for ware boards for years and I love them for that purpose, and have long considered trying to make bats out of it.  The 1/4" is probably lighter than a Medex bat, maybe the 1/2" (really 0.42") too.  It definitely won't care if it gets left for a week with ooky wet clay sitting on it in a bag.  CONS - I can cut the stuff with handheld cutters that I was going to buy for cutting up ware boards anyway, but I'm not sure I can properly drill holes in it even with a carbide drill bit. I don't know if 1/4" is enough for bats, maybe 1/2" would be required.  That would be even harder for me to drill.  I'm not sure I could even get it marked properly to get the bat pins in the right place.

Here's a guy making hardiebacker inserts, wish I had HIS workshop LOL!  He doesn't drill his since they're inserts.  He has got a drill press though!  He's using 1/4" hardibacker but I'm not sure that would be stable enough for something that has to do battle with bat pins every time you use it.  The 1/4" is at least really 1/4".  Plus the whole how-to-mark-and-drill-holes issue. 

So any advice for how to work around the issue of having stuff (not) drying on plastic bats because its too wet to lift off by using some kind of bat system I can schlep around and won't warp or dissolve if it gets left sitting for a week would be VERY welcome!

[Russ]

Go for the "1/2in" hardibacker. 1/4 seems flimsy and has a tendency to crack with heavier pieces on it and I could see it flexing with lots of pieces on it causing warping issues. Just my 2cents. Oh and perhaps its time to finally go for that home studio youve always dreamed about.

[dhPotter]

The 1/2 inch hardibacker I have has 1 side that is very smooth, I use this for worktables. The 1/4 inch hardibacker I have has a texture on 1 side and squares indented into the other side. I use this for ware boards after the clay has set up so as not to mare the surface of the piece. I cut my ware boards to only 18-24 inches long.

[Pyewackette]

@Russ Well of COURSE its time for my home studio!  Unfortunately my son believes it is more important to fix the INSIDE of the house first.  It took 6 months but we did finally get the Taliban-cave-grey walls painted over, and new tile is being laid even as we e-speak.  Then there's just the electrical work and the kitchen, THEN I can get to work on my studio.  I've been camping out here since July.  I don't have a clue where most things are, say, for instance, my good DeWalt drill that I need to drive the PacTool Snapper shear to cut up the Hardiebacker board, grrrr!  My son only has a dinky little 5.2A corded B&D drill.  I don't think that's powerful enough to drive the shears but I may be desperate enough to try for the 8 or 10 9" squares I need for now.  If I burn it out, at least he'll end up with a GOOD drill when I replace it.

I did find my carbide scoring tool.  Hopefully I can find it again.  But I hate trying to score and snap the 1/2" board, which is another reason I was going to use 1/4" wherever possible.

For the 1/4" hardiebacker ware boards, (and @dhPotter) I only make my ware boards big enough for individual items.  I'm a wee bitty thing and prefer to schlep single items.  I don't think I've ever had a "ware board" bigger than 9" square.  Most if not all the ones I may have left (wherever they are) are probably only 6" square.  In the past I've only wheel thrown but I AM getting in to handbuilding a little bit where I might want something along the lines of 8 to 12" wide by up to 18" long, but would 1/4" still be bad if its no larger than 9" or so square?  Actually all my old ware boards are out of the 1/2", I've never used the 1/4".  I've got a piece of 1/2" out in the garage that I've been saving for a drying table, but the 1/4" is 50% cheaper than the 1/2" now, post pandemic.  They used to cost almost the same.

I have very sturdy metal shelves I plan to use for drying that I intended to line with 1/4" hardiebacker cut 2' wide to fit into the 2x4 shelves.  They will just sit there and not be moved except to clean.  The shelves are plenty strong enough for the weight and I was going to continue to use individual sized "ware boards" (maybe its wrong of me to call it a "ware board" when I'm only using them for one item at a time) to schlep things around one at time.  Yes, eventually I'll get a sturdy cart.  But one thing at a time in all things, not just schlepping LOL!

If and when I get to making really Big Pots (and I do aspire to do so), hopefully I will by then have found all my old 1/2" ware boards, or if not I'll bite the bullet and definitely go to the 1/2" for those.  But given I'm making smaller, single items, would the 1/4" do for now, for small 6" or 9" squares?

If I DO manage to make any bats I will definitely plan to use the 1/2".  Any advice on how to mark and drill the holes for the bat pins?

[dhPotter]

For drying rack I used 1/2 inch hardiebacker, smooth side up, placed on top of 3/4 inch plywood shelves. I wasn't sure if the hardiebacker would flex downward. The plywood was already being used for the shelf, but the plywood would mar the bottoms of pieces after trimming. 

[Callie Beller Diesel]

I have some bats I made out of paper faced plywood. I made one set out of 3/4” and the other, 6” diameter set out of 1/2”. The half inch ones are warping now. I know it’s not hardibacker, but the thickness contributes to a certain amount of warping resistance. Another question to ask would be how long do you  need them to last? If it’s just while you’re at the group studio, (less than a year maybe?) I’d go with whatever option is the least expensive. If you want to use them in the upcoming home studio, plan for your ideal working situation there. You’ll be in that place longer.

As for making round bats with holes in them for pins, go with the thicker material. You can drill all the way through the bat without worrying about catching your hands on any raised parts of the pin. Rather than trying to mark the holes on a round bat, find the centre while the piece is still square by marking an x from corner to corner, using a straight edge. Using that centre point, you can mark out the circumference at the distance where you want the pins, and drill where the circle and straight lines intersect.  Then cut and sand as per the guy in the video. You’ll have to check your own wheel for pin spacing: I don’t know what make you have and I believe some brands can vary a bit. If you’re making more than half a dozen bats, it could be worth making a paper template so you can mark it off quickly.

I used a drill press to make my bats,  and I will say that it’s worth checking for a maker space, tool library or rental place that has one if again you’re making more than a handful. If you’re only doing a few, you’ll just have to drill carefully to keep them at the right distance apart. If you’re fond of good tools, you’re not going to be mad about owning a set of drill bits suitable for hardibacker.

 

[Roberta12]

Community studios are a great place to learn and connect with others. But often there are work arounds to make things happen.  When I was at the Community studio I started buying my own things.  Slowly adding what I needed.  Can you leave ware boards and bats and tools there??  That way you wouldn't have to transport things back and forth.  That was when I bought my bat insert system.  I added inserts to the system over the years and they are 15 years old and going strong.  

The clay situation sounds really unfortunate!  

[Pyewackette]

5 hours ago, dhPotter said:

For drying rack I used 1/2 inch hardiebacker, smooth side up, placed on top of 3/4 inch plywood shelves. I wasn't sure if the hardiebacker would flex downward. The plywood was already being used for the shelf, but the plywood would mar the bottoms of pieces after trimming. 

Well its only $5 per 3x5 sheet price difference.  I guess I should stick with the 1/2".  My shelves are heavy gauge wire,  rated at something like 800lbs per shelf.  I'm not worried about weight.  I knew there were squares etched into the "bad" side of the 1/4" but I thought the other side was the same as the "good" side on the 1/2", but since that doesn't seem to be the case, its really not worth the $5 savings.

@Callie Beller Diesel and @Roberta12

The idea to make bats out of the hardiebacker is a temporary solution while I am at the studio.  I don't have shelf space and when I started this thread it wasn't looking likely that I'd get any any time soon.  But then the new manager was telling me this afternoon that he is in the process of putting in new shelves so more people can have space and apparently I'm high on the list of people likely to get space when there is some (or at least that's what he said, possibly to appease me LOL!).  I should have a better idea of whether or not I can get some shelf space by the end of next week, if not by the end of this one.  If I CAN get some space (and I can actually REACH it, some of those shelves are REALLY high and I'm a little old 5'2" lady who shouldn't be up on ladders, I was up on a step ladder the other day and threw my hands up for the joy of finding the pieces I was looking for and some of my fellow potters thought I was in the process of falling off LOL!) then I will seriously think about just getting some of my favorite hydrostone bats.  But the schlepping of them is just too much for me, I wouldn't have enough energy left to pot LOL!

Good news is the clay was a LOT better today, apparently there's been a breakthrough (although we finished throwing last week, trimming this week, and next week is glazing day and the end of the class so ... limited benefit at least as far as class is concerned).  A new batch came out and just using it for lugs while I trimmed, I could feel the difference.  It's been 6 weeks of slogging up to now though.  They actually hauled the last bin of the previous stuff directly out to the reclaim so good riddance to bad rubbish.  I hope.

More good news, my tile guy is going to cut some square bats for me out of the hardiebacker I have in the garage (since my good tools are buried in packed-for-months stuff).  I talked to my potter friend at the studio today and he said the same thing you did, make an x and measure out 10" from center (Shimpo wheels at the studio and I have a Shimpo VL at home with the same pin spacing) for the holes for the bat pins.  Even if I DO get some shelf space so I can leave some hydrobats in place, I'd still use the hardiebacker square "bats" as ware boards.  Those are still in short supply and I can use them at home later when I get my home studio.  Someday.

Just for shoots and giggles, I looked at drill press prices on Home Depot and at first I thought, hmmm, not as expensive a piece of equipment as I thought.  $179 ... $285, that's sort of high ... $1395 EEEEEEEK!  How good does a drill press need to be for this sort of thing?  And what else could I do with it?  I'm always up for a new tool if I can somehow justify it, but at my age I've pretty much stopped investing in much in the way of tools other than for pottery.  I did not replace my good DeWalt construction tools with more good DeWalt construction tools after movers stole them (except for the drill), its not like I'm going to build another house at my age.  Mostly I got middlin' Harbor Freight tools as replacements, except for the paint sprayer and the circular saw.  I'm pretty sure even those are going to outlast me by this point.

[Callie Beller Diesel]

Drill presses are usually something one needs to own outright if you’re building a lot of cabinetry, but they do come in handy for some other things. If you don’t want to go all the way through your material and only to the depth of the bat pin, it’s the ticket. Like I said, renting or borrowing  one for a day can be a really good option if you’ve got a bunch of bats/inserts you want to make. It’ll make the job go much more quickly. If you only want a few? Just go at it with the regular drill. If you wanted to mind the depth control, put a piece of masking tape on the drill bit to mark where you want to stop. 

[RuthB]

Couple of sideways suggestions... When the clay is really wet, arch some for a few hours and bag it for your next session.  To deal with the shortness, add a little bentonite to  your 

clay. First, you have to mix it in a blender with hot water to make a slurry. Then wedge into your clay. 2% bentonite does wonders. 

How large are your pieces? If you dry your hands throughly, it's possible to pick up even very wet pieces by gently wrapping your hands around them, twisting slightly and lifting. 

Also, make a very strong 45 degree angle under your pieces. Then, turn your hands palms up and spread your index and middle fingers to a V. Use these as pot lifters in the undercut area.

Steady the pot with your thumbs. 

Throw dry. It's possible with some practice to throw without water. After each pull, thoroughly clean your hands of all slip and dry them. It's the difference in wet and dry areas that cause 

problems in throwing. Mostly, it's easier to keep it all wet. If you keep it all dry, you can throw without water. And you might get to throwing those big pots more easily.

Why can't I get out of double spacing?

Best of luck!

Ruth

 

[Min]

21 hours ago, Pyewackette said:

...but worse, the clay body has changed significantly.  I don't know exactly what's going on but it is a lot wetter, nearly always seems short (though I'm no expert), and I have not been able to get a single item off the bat at the end of a 3 hour wheel session yet.  It was worse a few weeks ago but its still not "normal".  The person who used to do most of the work ordering and mixing isn't doing it any more...

Is the clay being mixed in the studio? If so is it vacuum pugged? The shortness could just be because the clay hasn't aged enough. Have you tested it for absorption yourself (if you are making functional pots like mugs etc). From what you are saying I'm not so sure I would completely trust it until I ran some tests on it myself. Don't want to make a bunch of work only to find out the clay isn't suitable for what you are making.

[Pyewackette]

@Min - It is vacuum pugged and as of last night, it seems a lot better.  Might be normal again, I don't know for sure but it felt a lot better when I was handling it to make lugs for trimming.  Also they came in and hauled away the last of the definitely off stuff back to reclaim, so I'm guessing that whatever issue(s) they were having with it are largely solved now. It did seem to take them a couple of months though. I'll be working it tomorrow and we'll see ...

I'm not at a stage where a "lot of work" is much of a possibility for me yet.  But I'm getting closer.  I'm almost back to where I was before my last clay hiatus.  EG I can make bowls pretty reliably up to mixing size, but I haven't re-mastered lids or throwing off the hump yet. I'm far enough along again now that as long as I end up with studio space I would be comfortable working on my own again, but if I can't get the space I'll just re-up for another class so I can keep working.

[Denice]

I have a couple of small plaster slabs  (18x12x2) in my studio to put clay on when it is too wet to throw.  It doesn't take long to get rid of the excess moisture,  I have one for red clay and the other for white.    I find some cardboard boxes about that size and use the bottoms for the mold.   I reinforce the corners with tape on the outside,  make sure it is a sturdy box.   I use pottery plaster,  you can make them thicker.   I make them that thin to keep the weight down.     Denice

[Hulk]

Oh aye, I'm getting milage out of my cake pan plaster slabs (they might be 9x13, a bit less than 2" thick)!
Heh, to me they're "big" tho', on account of I have to be careful picking them up with one hand - two are better.
I'm propping them up on 1" sticks so air can circulate underneath and carry away moisture.
I do like the double decking look, but am keeping one side for red/buff/brown/black and t'other side for white clays...

[Denice]

Pie pans for molds is a great idea,   plaster drying slabs don't last forever.   I work with quite a few clay's so it would be nice to have one for each clay.   I have some pottery plaster that needs to be used,  I will put this on my list of projects.   Denice

[Hulk]

We've agreed on kitchen tools and pans stay in the kitchen, so I went shopping for molds at thrift stores nearby.
I have several sizes of round pans for plaster bats, and two large rectangular cake pans for slabs.

I made three of the rectangular slabs; they are holding up ok so far, however, there is wear, especially around the edges*, aye that.
The three slabs are about right for three to three an' a half gallons of reclaim. I could use two more slab, hmm, wonder if the rest o' that plaster is still good?
I like the rectangles for drying out reclaim - they make good use of the counter space.

*I did knock the corners off whilst the plaster was still damp, which helps.

[LeeU]

I'm glad I live alone. I can leave that hand blender wherever I used it last, tho I do have to remember to wash the glaze off it before I use it to blend soup. I never did find my potao masher, but I know it's in the studio somewhere. 

[Pyewackette]

So the clay situation is still ongoing.  Turns out they turned out ONE bin of the good stuff, and then 4 bins (Rubbermaid storage bins, not sure how many lbs in there) of better-than-it-had-been-but-still-not-up-to-par stuff.  The stuff I handled was from the good bin.  But it looks like there might be light at the end of the tunnel, and maybe it isn't a train.

Unfortunately when I mentioned that the studio manager said he could let me know about shelf space by the end of next week, the other studio minions laughed out loud.  So ... still need alternative bats to address drying issues.  I don't have anywhere to store 15 or 20 lbs of clay while it dries out some for the same reason I can't just go to Hydrostone bats - no storage space.  I go through at least that much per session now and hope to increase that as time progresses (eventually through having daily access to a wheel, when I can get that set up in the house which will actually be fairly soon, when the tile is done and I can start unpacking after 8 or 9 months of camping out in my living room LOL!)

I won't be able to fire it until I get a kiln but given I expect to crumple a lot in my search for the Perfect Cylinder, that's not an issue yet.  I need more practice just for practice' sake than I can get having to schlep myself to a studio all the way across town.  And having once schlepped myself over there, I find myself reluctant to crumple as much as I should.  At home I would be going through at least twice as much clay per session, and hopefully would be able to work at the wheel most days rather than only 2 or 3.

Thanks for the help.

[Pyewackette]

On 2/24/2022 at 12:05 PM, LeeU said:

I'm glad I live alone. I can leave that hand blender wherever I used it last, tho I do have to remember to wash the glaze off it before I use it to blend soup. I never did find my potao masher, but I know it's in the studio somewhere. 

I've got a potato masher on my tool list LOL!  I don't think I own one.  Perhaps I should wait until I can unpack tp be sure ...