digital controller Lied too by seller and didn't do my homework. Can I make the best of this situation? Can I install a Paragon (orton) controller on an old cress high fire kiln.

[Jaalam aiken]

I was sold what I thought was a cone 6 paragon kiln with a sentry 2.0 controller but after several firings realized it was only rated to cone 4.   Now its of no use to me so I was hoping it would be possible to move the Sentry 2.0 digital controller over to my old cone 6 manual Cress kiln.  The Cress is a 240v 20 amp kiln and the controller is coming off a 240volt 48 amp Paragon.  Has anyone done something similar? I am unsure if it would be better to install a receptacle onto the controller and plug the kiln into that or wire the controller directly to the kiln. Are there any resources that might help me figure this out?   

Thanks'

Jaalam Aiken

[Bill Kielb]

Electronic controllers cannot switch high power loads on and off. Instead relays are used to switch the elements and the controller switches the relays on and off so controllers can be used with most any size kiln by using the right number of relays. So it should be entirely doable but will likely take some familiarity with such circuits and safe control of circuits using relays.

On another subject though, cone 4 is a bit odd for a rating.

A Paragon  that draws 48 amps ought to be rated cone 8 minimum and the Cress that draws only 20 amps likely would be a cone 8 kiln. Maybe 10 if very small. So your situation seems a bit contradictory. Can you list the exact model numbers of each kiln? You will find the model on an equipment tag affixed to the kiln. Maybe just post a clear picture of each.

Also, what do you usually fire to ……… cone 6 perhaps?

[neilestrick]

I agree with Bill. Cone 4 would be a very odd rating for a kiln unless maybe it's a glass kiln. Even if it's a cone 6 kiln, if you're firing to cone 6 the elements have to be in perfect condition in order for it to reach temp, so you may only get about 35 firings from a set of elements, which is pretty bad. For comparison, a cone 10 kiln firing bisque and cone 6 will get 130-150 firings before the elements need to be changed. Let us know the model numbers of your kilns and we can figure out what's going on here.

[Jaalam aiken]

Thanks for the response guys.  I agree, after seeing the Paragon Kiln I never imagined it wasn't at least a cone 6 kiln. The "high fire" on front of the control box had me fooled. I bisque fired twice and fired to 6 twice.  The cone 6 firings stopped short with a FTL error at around1980. So I did a full speed firing to cone 6 and  stuffed ceramic fiber in every crevis I could find and it finally hit  cone 6. But researching why it was taking so long I realized it was only rated to 2150F.  Apparently according to paragon, its build just like the Viking 28 cone 10 kiln but with smaller elements and a few other things that would make it cost a lot to upgrade it. 

I've fired to 6 easily with the old Cress. Of course it's built much better in my opinion. But it lacked a  controller or even a kiln sitter. Plus it's smaller. I would much rather have a cone 10 kiln but can't afford to spend $5000 at the moment. Trying to make the best of what I have.   Here are the pictures you asked for.

 

[Bill Kielb]

2 hours ago, Jaalam aiken said:

Thanks for the response guys.  I agree, after seeing the Paragon Kiln I never imagined it wasn't at least a cone 6 kiln. The "high fire" on front of the control box had me fooled. I bisque fired twice and fired to 6 twice.

Yep, you are spot on, this is billed as a lowfire kiln by Paragon. To make this work, you would need approximately 15,000 + watts for this size kiln………. 15000 + w is tough to power in a residence ………..Still Thinking………. If we could shrink the kiln but keep all the elements ………… can the center section be removed without losing elements? Just thinking of alternatives.

[neilestrick]

Unfortunately you can't just put the Viking 28 elements in it as is. You'd have to add branch fusing and upgrade the internal wiring, as well as run a new higher amperage service line.

I believe this has a blank row in the top section, like a 2-3" tall row at the top without elements, and removing that should bump it up to cone 7-8. But the control box might not fit correctly if the kiln was shorter, and you'd have to replace or cut down the metal body band.

The only other option I can think of is to rebuild it as a considerably smaller kiln. Remove the top ring to make it 18" tall, get a new control box that fits, move all the parts over to the new box, and replace the elements. At 28" wide and 18" tall it would be a cone 10 kiln at 48 amps, so you wouldn't need to make any changes to your electrical service. If you're not familiar with kiln wiring I would not attempt it, though.

[Jaalam aiken]

I like the idea of making it smaller because I dont need all that heighth. Im not at the house but when I get back ill check to see if there is empty space in the kiln. I just dont remember noticing any empty layers of brick without elements but hopefully there are.   I will get back to you later today with that info. Thanks again to you both. In my area there arent kiln techs within 200 miles much less any who would provide this much help for free. Much appreciated.

[Dick White]

Something else to consider here (not saying don't do it, just that there is one other nuance). We had a discussion awhile back about these Sentry controllers that are programmed at the factory for a maximum temperature consistent with the design of the kiln it is installed on. If this one is on a low-fire kiln, the programmed maximum temperature the controller will allow surely is below cone 6. After rebuilding the kiln to have the full 48 amps of heat in a smaller volume, the controller will need to be tweaked to allow it. I don't remember how that was done, just that it took awhile before somebody found the steps for reprogramming the maximum temperature.

[Jaalam aiken]

That would make sense. But remember I have actually had it to 2260 twice before. I just had to program it to run full power so it wouldnt throw an error for taking to long.

[Jaalam aiken]

And that reminds me of how odd it is to me that it says its High fire controller right on the front.

[Jaalam aiken]

So there is about 3 inches at the top that could come off. Would that be enough to make a difference?

Another thought, since we cant make it much shorter, what about filling in the bottom third of the kiln with fire brick except for an inch around the sides so that the bottom coil s heat can rise up but not have to heat so much space. Would that work the same way as taking out the bottom third?  Or at least work good enough? 

 

[neilestrick]

If you take the top ring off you'll have to see if the control box still fits properly- it can't be sticking up above the kiln. You'll also have to cut down the body band and re-mount the hinge system.

Adding bricks to the bottom will block some of the elements.

The TNF273 would be the shorter version of your kiln. You'd have to remove one of the lower rings, get a smaller control box and baffle, move all the control parts over, and get new elements. I don't know what the hinge system looks like on that kiln but it may need to be replaced as well. If it's something you think you can do safely yourself, I would call Paragon and talk to them about the specifics. If you do this, I would also replace any broken bricks with good bricks from the section you remove.

[Jaalam aiken]

Im real close to just turning this thing into a propane powered kiln and call it a day lol. Thanks for giving me all this to think about. I may just try to get this controller onto the cress. That seams to be the most doable for the least amount of money. 

[Jaalam aiken]

Are there any sentry 2.0 control board wiring diagrams available? I havent been able to find one. Never mind! I found the links to that info.

[Bill Kielb]

1 hour ago, Jaalam aiken said:

Another thought, since we cant make it much shorter, what about filling in the bottom third of the kiln with fire brick except for an inch around the sides so that the bottom coil s heat can rise up but not have to heat so much space. Would that work the same way as taking out the bottom third?  Or at least work good enough? 

Wow, none of these sound promising actually, sorry.

Something to try - put a full shelf in the bottom supported on tall stilts or fire brick. Maybe 8” off the Floors and see If this thing  fires to cone six. This will block some of the element radiation but is a simple thing to try as if this has a floor element. If it does fire to temp, then we probably have a creative way or two to make it a bit more efficient and at least in the short term somewhat useful.

[Jaalam aiken]

Thats something I can do!  Worth a try at least. Ill fire it up and let you know what happens. Thanks so much.

[Bill Kielb]

3 hours ago, Jaalam aiken said:

Worth a try at least. Ill fire it up and let you know what happens. Thanks so much.

If it works with wares in it, then wrapping just the bottom of the kiln - say up to the level of your shelf with 1” or more of  high temp insulation would improve the available  power of the kiln a bit more and is fairly easy to do. While not the best fix, maybe a functional fix and finally your most bang for the buck would be insulating top and bottom. If you do the top, the lid will distort so not really a workable idea, and the problem with the bottom is you need  high temp rigid insulation to set the kiln on so wrapping the bottom outside  is probably easiest. This very well is likely to accelerate the degradation of the bottom band a bit though depending on moisture etc….  Best of luck.  I can tell you that a few months back we had an engineering student building his own kiln which was significantly underpowered and after adding two layers of insulation he was firing fine. So anything is possible, is it worth the effort to you?