Buying a used kiln

[Stephen]

31 minutes ago, neilestrick said:

 I don't think the seller would necessarily be making money on the deal, but probably coming close to breaking even, and the buyer could be saving $1000 on what is basically the same kiln. For me the vent is the deal breaker, as the old style vent is definitely inferior. 

but that's a thousand off new not off another comparable late 90s/early 00 5cf kiln. Stuff depreciates and the value goes down unless its made of precious stones or metals  To me getting more than I paid for a kiln 20 years later would definitely be making out really, really well on the deal. I'm just saying the actual owner of the kiln may well get that the friend is wrong and a fair price for that kiln is no where near 2k.

besides that 1000 savings you mention evaporates in a hurry if the 20 year old controller goes on the blink or a brittle element craps out. But at 7-$800 which I bet is more like the going price for that kiln the savings may make the risk worth it. Ya know though I do respect your opinion and get that to some people 2k might pencil out and that kiln may then last them the rest of their days so I guess it works out either way. Depends on what your criteria is and if you get what you need out of it. 

[Pat B.]

I'm the OP and I'm grateful for all the comments. I'm really glad I asked your opinion, I've learned a lot.

I've let the seller know that I'm backing out of the deal. I said that I was advised that the vent might fail which would cost me $400-$500 and if the wiring needs to be replaced it's another couple hundred. Also she should consider what she originally paid (I know she has the invoice) and lower the price to some percentage of that. If she came back with $800 I would probably buy it.

At this point I'm looking to finance a new kiln instead of buying her old one.

Thank you everyone for your input.

[Cynthia Parker Houghton]

I am concidering buying a used L&L Econo Kiln Serial # 11173 which I understand means it was new in 1973. The insulation bricks look in good condition. The lid has a minor crack. My question is does this kiln still have value? Can I replace the wiring?

[Bill Kielb]

1 hour ago, Cynthia Parker Houghton said:

I am concidering buying a used L&L Econo Kiln Serial # 11173 which I understand means it was new in 1973. The insulation bricks look in good condition. The lid has a minor crack. My question is does this kiln still have value? Can I replace the wiring?

Yes it has value and yes you can rewire. Having said that this can be said of most kilns. Detailed pictures of its present condition will get some informed opinions here as well as an idea of purchase cost and potential improvement costs. The previous poster decided to pass on the deal she was being offered I believe after considering all the costs.

[neilestrick]

3 hours ago, Cynthia Parker Houghton said:

I am concidering buying a used L&L Econo Kiln Serial # 11173 which I understand means it was new in 1973. The insulation bricks look in good condition. The lid has a minor crack. My question is does this kiln still have value? Can I replace the wiring?

If it still has the original wiring, it should be rewired. It's not super difficult, just do one wire at a time. If the bricks are in good condition and the lid and floor are stable, get it if the price is right.

[Cynthia Parker Houghton]

15 hours ago, Cynthia Parker Houghton said:

I am concidering buying a used L&L Econo Kiln Serial # 11173 which I understand means it was new in 1973. The insulation bricks look in good condition. The lid has a minor crack. My question is does this kiln still have value? Can I replace the wiring?

I am not near the kiln to send photos but the bricks and element channels looked  good and the elements were replaced 20 years ago and then never used. I just wanted to make sure that I can still get replacement parts for the switch boxes and kiln sitter. It's a hexagonal kiln two rings high and  18" in diameter.  Model K18, Watts 4400, Volts 220/110, Amps 20. Obviously I'm concidering this because I don't want to spend $3000 for a kiln but I want something that works and is safe.

Also, If I set this up in my basement and maybe want to get a bigger kiln later what kind of wiring should I set up. and ventilation....all the questions.

[neilestrick]

9 minutes ago, Cynthia Parker Houghton said:

I just wanted to make sure that I can still get replacement parts for the switch boxes and kiln sitter.

Yes, you can still get parts. The down side of that kiln is that it's a bit under-powered at 20 amps. A modern kiln of that size would pull 24-27 amps. It is rated for cone 8, but your  element life won't be as good as a cone 10 kiln. I would go ahead and use the elements in it, but when they're due for replacement have Euclids make elements that will bump it up to 24 amps.  With either setup you'll need a 30 amp breaker for the electrical circuit.

If you plan to get a bigger kiln later, you'll likely need a 60 amp circuit for it. If it's a short run from the breaker box to the kiln, run big enough conduit to handle the 6 gauge wire later, and just put in the 30 amp circuit now. If it's a longer run, you may want to put in a 60 amp sub-panel near the kiln, and run the 30 amp circuit from that. Your electrician should be able to tell you what the most economical method is for future needs. 

In a basement you'll probably need to vent heat as well as fumes. A downdraft vent will do a great job of venting fumes, but does nothing for heat. In addition to a downdraft you could do something as simple as using two open windows with fans to move air through the room, or hook up a 400cfm duct fan near the kiln the pulls heat out. Or use an overhead hood system to pull heat and fumes. With your small kiln it won't take much to vent heat, though.

[Cynthia Parker Houghton]

On 5/3/2021 at 9:54 AM, neilestrick said:

Yes, you can still get parts. The down side of that kiln is that it's a bit under-powered at 20 amps. A modern kiln of that size would pull 24-27 amps. It is rated for cone 8, but your  element life won't be as good as a cone 10 kiln. I would go ahead and use the elements in it, but when they're due for replacement have Euclids make elements that will bump it up to 24 amps.  With either setup you'll need a 30 amp breaker for the electrical circuit.

If you plan to get a bigger kiln later, you'll likely need a 60 amp circuit for it. If it's a short run from the breaker box to the kiln, run big enough conduit to handle the 6 gauge wire later, and just put in the 30 amp circuit now. If it's a longer run, you may want to put in a 60 amp sub-panel near the kiln, and run the 30 amp circuit from that. Your electrician should be able to tell you what the most economical method is for future needs. 

In a basement you'll probably need to vent heat as well as fumes. A downdraft vent will do a great job of venting fumes, but does nothing for heat. In addition to a downdraft you could do something as simple as using two open windows with fans to move air through the room, or hook up a 400cfm duct fan near the kiln the pulls heat out. Or use an overhead hood system to pull heat and fumes. With your small kiln it won't take much to vent heat, though.

Thankyou. I really appreciate you taking the time for this thorough response.

[Cynthia Parker Houghton]

Ok. So I'm a little daunted by a fixer-upper and am thinking I would really rather have a bigger kiln anyway.  Now I'm looking at this kiln:  Skutt KM Series Kilnmaster Automatic Kiln - KM-1018-3, Cone 10, 240V, 1P, 39.4A. Any recommendations about where to buy kilns? I am in Southern Vermont. My hope is that if and when there are any problems that come up in the future that  there would be someone to ask help from. I love working with clay but am not much of a technician. I've worked with a similar model Skutt before.

 

[neilestrick]

27 minutes ago, Cynthia Parker Houghton said:

Ok. So I'm a little daunted by a fixer-upper and am thinking I would really rather have a bigger kiln anyway.  Now I'm looking at this kiln:  Skutt KM Series Kilnmaster Automatic Kiln - KM-1018-3, Cone 10, 240V, 1P, 39.4A. Any recommendations about where to buy kilns? I am in Southern Vermont. My hope is that if and when there are any problems that come up in the future that  there would be someone to ask help from. I love working with clay but am not much of a technician. I've worked with a similar model Skutt before.

 

I would call around to some of the online retailers and see if they have one in stock. It's a less-common size, so there's a good chance they don't, in which case the lead time is going to be a few months. Otherwise use Skutt's distributor locator page HERE.

[rwillis]

I think it's a good buy but want the forum's comments before I pull the trigger.  K14 Econo Kiln Serial 11671.  Watts 2640, Amps 12, Volts 220/110.  Price $165 and my partner has experience with electrical if we need to rewire it.  I have no experience firing but am excited to learn-- any good resource recommendations?    Thinking I can do at least cone 6?   

[neilestrick]

The serial plate says it'll get to cone 8, so you'll be good for cone 6. At 240 volts the wattage will be little higher so it may be more like cone 9.

You'll need a 20 amp breaker.

Elements are still available from L&L.

What's the inside look like? You may not be able to get replacement bricks for this kiln. I've seen that in some of these old K models they had a different brick and element holder layout than the newer kilns. If the bricks are good, then no worry. If you need element holders I'd check with L&L and make sure the new ones will fit. I'm pretty sure they will, but best to verify.

[Dick White]

The 220/110 voltage (now 240/120) shown on the rating plate is a trigger that the original electrical design of the kiln may be two 110v (now 120) kilns stacked, i.e., the top half is a 110v kiln in and of itself, and the bottom is the same. That means the power cord and circuit wiring to the receptacle is 4 wires (2 hots from opposite phases of the main panel, a neutral, and a ground) vs. current standards of a 3-wire circuit. If so, the neutral is an important part of the electrical configuration. And not that it matters greatly, the serial number on L&L kilns is the date of manufacture, so that one was built on Nov. 6, 1971. In a couple of days, you can celebrate its 50th birthday.

[rwillis]

 

4 hours ago, neilestrick said:

The serial plate says it'll get to cone 8, so you'll be good for cone 6. At 240 volts the wattage will be little higher so it may be more like cone 9.

You'll need a 20 amp breaker.

Elements are still available from L&L.

What's the inside look like? You may not be able to get replacement bricks for this kiln. I've seen that in some of these old K models they had a different brick and element holder layout than the newer kilns. If the bricks are good, then no worry. If you need element holders I'd check with L&L and make sure the new ones will fit. I'm pretty sure they will, but best to verify.

Here's a picture of the inside.  Seller says the lid and floor are both stable but there are no shelves/furniture. Thanks for the stacking note, Dick-- that's helpful for when we'll need to rewire.

[neilestrick]

5 hours ago, Dick White said:

The 220/110 voltage (now 240/120) shown on the rating plate is a trigger that the original electrical design of the kiln may be two 110v (now 120) kilns stacked, i.e., the top half is a 110v kiln in and of itself, and the bottom is the same.

It'll have a 4 prong plug if this is the case.

2 hours ago, rwillis said:

Here's a picture of the inside. 

There are a number of broken brick there. I can't quite tell in the picture but it looks like the type where the element holder spans the edges of two bricks, rather than being in the middle of a single brick. If that's the case, you cannot get replacement bricks for that kiln.