desertpotter Posted December 19, 2020 Report Share Posted December 19, 2020 Hello, The other day I had an under firing, and eventually noticed gunk on one of my elements. I removed the element, and underneath in the l&l element holder found some black burn marks/gunk that I then took a dremel to. I was told this was the right way to do it, since I don't want the black gunk contaminating the new element. I do not have a new element holder on hand. While doing this, I noticed at one point that the dremel felt different and that I had drilled into a small piece of metal. It almost seems like the end of a... thick-ish pin? I stopped what I was doing. What could this metal piece be? To my knowledge the element holders do not have any metal parts. I'll try to get a photo of it and post here. Thanks for any insight! 12/20/20 Update! I've gone back at/next to this metal bit with a dremel, and just a minute into drilling it popped out. It's a tiny round 2-ish mm piece of something that does in fact stick to a magnet. Upon vaccuuming the area out, I now see almost a tiny cavern in the element holder below the general spot where the element was burned out. Any thoughts on this? Is it safe to put the new element in, or should I drill more out? What could have caused the burnt out cavern in the element holder? Any insight is so appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertpotter Posted December 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted December 19, 2020 Report Share Posted December 19, 2020 Whats on the backside of that a screw? Seems odd that metal could be in the hard ceramaic holder-can you drill it out with a drill bit-just go slow and easy. Once its a bit recessed you should be fine. Lets see what Neil says Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted December 19, 2020 Report Share Posted December 19, 2020 Take a look on the outside to make sure a screw was not actually driven too deep or one that was too long was not accidentally driven in.. generally the screws to hold hardware, control box, etc... are far too short and /or positioned as such to avoid this but it does occasionally happen. If a screw, remove it and replace with a shorter version. This will short the element to ground so it must be removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertpotter Posted December 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2020 9 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said: Take a look on the outside to make sure a screw was not actually driven too deep or one that was too long was not accidentally driven in.. generally the screws to hold hardware, control box, etc... are far too short and /or positioned as such to avoid this but it does occasionally happen. If a screw, remove it and replace with a shorter version. This will short the element to ground so it must be removed. Thanks Bill! It’s on the opposite side of the kiln from the control box, and I don’t see any screws on the outside/metal housing. Could there be a screw underneath that? Do I need to investigate under the metal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertpotter Posted December 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2020 15 minutes ago, Mark C. said: Wahst on the backside of that a screw? Seems odd that metal could be in the hard ceramaic holder-can you drill it out with a drill bit-just go slow and easy. Once its a bit recessed you should be fine. Lets see what Neil says Thanks Mark. So if it is recessed (if I’m able to drill it) and not touching the element, would this be okay? Worst case scenario, would this just burn out that single element? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted December 19, 2020 Report Share Posted December 19, 2020 Hmm, maybe embedded somewhere during fabrication. I like Marks idea of drilling / grinding away so there is clearance if this is not a fixture holder. Lots of bits of pins stuck here and there over the years so minor issue for functionality IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted December 19, 2020 Report Share Posted December 19, 2020 My thought is if it metal you can drill it back some and if you had some kiln cement (very small dab) you could apply that in the hole keeping any metal from slaking out of it when hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertpotter Posted December 20, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Mark C. said: My thought is if it metal you can drill it back some and if you had some kiln cement (very small dab) you could apply that in the hole keeping any metal from slaking out of it when hot. I don’t have any kiln cement, but can try my best to drill it back into the holder wall. If it isn’t sticking out anymore, is it safe to fire the kiln that way? I don’t mind risking it and possibly losing an element, I just want to make sure to be safe. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted December 20, 2020 Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 Sure its safe. Metal spalls (flakes as it melts) so if you get it drilled back a bit you should be fine.Even if you leave it that way it is it should be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roberta12 Posted December 20, 2020 Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 Wow! are you positive it is metal?? Not a chunk of glaze that has been fired over and over?? I have an L&L and I have had a number of self imposed mistakes. But I cannot imagine how a metal piece would get there??? Weird. I agree with the carefully drilling or dremeling it out. The kiln cement isn't that expensive and you could patch the hole?? Can't wait to see what Neil says!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted December 20, 2020 Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 There are no screws in the kiln that would go that far through. There are also no pins or screws or anything that hold the element holders in place- they just slide into grooves in the brick. I'd say that's a glob of element metal and ceramic holder and maybe brick that has melted into a glob. I've seen elements and holders melt out like that before. If you don't have a replacement holder, then just grind out that area and put a new element in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liambesaw Posted December 20, 2020 Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 It looks (to me) like what I picked out of my element grooves when I changed my elements... Chunks of the previous owners lowfire clay body that exploded during a bisque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertpotter Posted December 20, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 42 minutes ago, liambesaw said: It looks (to me) like what I picked out of my element grooves when I changed my elements... Chunks of the previous owners lowfire clay body that exploded during a bisque. This makes a lot of sense! It just looks so metallic that I thought it must be metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertpotter Posted December 20, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 1 hour ago, neilestrick said: There are no screws in the kiln that would go that far through. There are also no pins or screws or anything that hold the element holders in place- they just slide into grooves in the brick. I'd say that's a glob of element metal and ceramic holder and maybe brick that has melted into a glob. I've seen elements and holders melt out like that before. If you don't have a replacement holder, then just grind out that area and put a new element in. Thanks Neil! It's hard to believe anything could look like this just from melting together, but who knows how long it's been in there. I'll try to drill it away. Is there any chance I could drill too far in? Hopefully it doesn't go to deep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertpotter Posted December 20, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Roberta12 said: Wow! are you positive it is metal?? Not a chunk of glaze that has been fired over and over?? I have an L&L and I have had a number of self imposed mistakes. But I cannot imagine how a metal piece would get there??? Weird. I agree with the carefully drilling or dremeling it out. The kiln cement isn't that expensive and you could patch the hole?? Can't wait to see what Neil says!! I'm not sure what it is, but after reading the responses here I'm thinking there's a good chance that it's a bit of melted something! I'll continue drilling tomorrow, hopefully can get it all out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted December 20, 2020 Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 12 hours ago, desertpotter said: I'm not sure what it is, but after reading the responses here I'm thinking there's a good chance that it's a bit of melted something! I'll continue drilling tomorrow, hopefully can get it all out. Put a magnet to it after removing when you get it out then let us know it will be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyK Posted December 20, 2020 Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 Another option might be to use a diamond tipped core drill (Amazon or Harbor Freight) about 1/4" dia or whatever size would be necessary to get the piece out whole. Drill in about 1/4" deep, then chip out the core...shouldn't be a problem if it's just on the surface. You may be able to just chip it off with a sharp wood chisel if it's just on the surface... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Min Posted December 20, 2020 Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 If you have a Dremel tool that could work too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted December 20, 2020 Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 (While doing this, I noticed at one point that the dremel felt different ) maybe just grind it more with yuour Dremel-that may be enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertpotter Posted December 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2020 On 12/19/2020 at 10:37 PM, Bill Kielb said: Put a magnet to it after removing when you get it out then let us know it will be interesting. The small shiny bit was in fact magnetic! I updated this post with some photos of the element holder after removal. Not sure if everyone gets notified of the post updates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertpotter Posted December 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2020 On 12/19/2020 at 9:23 PM, neilestrick said: There are no screws in the kiln that would go that far through. There are also no pins or screws or anything that hold the element holders in place- they just slide into grooves in the brick. I'd say that's a glob of element metal and ceramic holder and maybe brick that has melted into a glob. I've seen elements and holders melt out like that before. If you don't have a replacement holder, then just grind out that area and put a new element in. Neil, I updated this post with some photos of the element holder after drilling some more and getting the metal bit out. Does the element holder look okay to use? Or should I drill out more? Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hulk Posted December 21, 2020 Report Share Posted December 21, 2020 Interesting! The element holder - in the original pic - has a rather big piece of the rail missing; could be that previous owner had (attempted to) fixed the element using a metal fastener? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liambesaw Posted December 21, 2020 Report Share Posted December 21, 2020 If this blob was right where the element burned out, and is magnetic, I'm going to say it was likely a piece of melted element. Either melted from failure or from a piece of clay or glaze touching it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted December 21, 2020 Report Share Posted December 21, 2020 Interesting in that if Kanthal A-1 it really takes above 2500 f to melt it and above 1000 f it loses its magnetic properties. Maybe the mystery bit of metal forever. You seem to have removed it nicely though. I would think fine to operate as is or you could fill with a touch of patch. If patched I would wipe away clean so the element can not touch the patch material. Some patching materials are conductive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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