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liambesaw

Bartlett v6-cf malfunction?

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So in my new kiln, I've noticed that the standard ramps seem off a bit.  And when I click the view segment button on the last ramp, it always gives the target as the current temperature, which didn't happen on my other kiln.  So I programmed a slow glaze to cone 5 with a 25 minute hold as usual, and it only went to 2130 before holding.  Bartlett's slow glaze to cone 5 is supposed to take it to 2167.  I'm wondering if this is a normal occurance or if maybe I should swap out to my other v6-cf and have this one repaired.  

Anyone ever noticed this? Am I nuts?

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5 hours ago, liambesaw said:

So in my new kiln, I've noticed that the standard ramps seem off a bit.  And when I click the view segment button on the last ramp, it always gives the target as the current temperature, which didn't happen on my other kiln.  So I programmed a slow glaze to cone 5 with a 25 minute hold as usual, and it only went to 2130 before holding.  Bartlett's slow glaze to cone 5 is supposed to take it to 2167.  I'm wondering if this is a normal occurance or if maybe I should swap out to my other v6-cf and have this one repaired.  

Anyone ever noticed this? Am I nuts?

I would go through the base programming. Sounds like offsets or other program changes. These temps are in a table in the V6cf. I think I sent you the technical manual long ago which provides relay cycle etc..... I would go through all the parameters and see where they are set, write them down as you go. I think you will discover the reason for the behavior and maybe even some settings you want to change or restore.

BTW as power decreases due to wear it will not be able to hit the rates and your numbers will look whacky and you will begin to overfire as the firing times extend further. Most kilns have trouble making the preprogrammed rates brand new.

Edited by Bill Kielb

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5 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

I would go through the base programming. Sounds like offsets or other program changes. These temps are in a table in the V6cf. I think I sent you the technical manual long ago which provides relay cycle etc..... I would go through all the parameters and see where they are set, write them down as you go. I think you will discover the reason for the behavior and maybe even some settings you want to change or restore.

BTW as power decreases due to wear it will not be able to hit the rates and your numbers will look whacky and you will begin to overfire as the firing times extend further. Most kilns have trouble making the preprogrammed rates brand new.

Could be that then, that my kiln just couldn't keep up with the final ramp?  Seems weird that it would just decide to end 37 degrees early.  Ill have to sit down with the technical manual and see if there's anything funky in the programming, I wasn't aware you could change the preset cone programs

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What are the cones showing, did you reach your target? If it got the heatwork necessary to bring the correct cone down then the final temp can be lower (or higher) than cone 5 @ 2167. When you use the preset firings the controller calculates the heatwork done in the firing therefore the actual temp can be higher or lower than textbook cone 5. If you mimicked the preset firing schedule but enter the ramps doing a custom schedule going to 2167 that is what it should reach regardless of if that is cone 5 or not. 

Edited by Min

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4 minutes ago, Min said:

What are the cones showing, did you reach your target? If it got the heatwork necessary to bring the correct cone down then the final temp can be lower (or higher) than cone 5 @ 2167. When you use the preset firings the controller calculates the heatwork done in the firing therefore the actual temp can be higher or lower than textbook cone 5. If you mimicked the preset firing schedule but enter the ramps doing a custom schedule going to 2167 that is what it should reach regardless of if that is cone 5 or not. 

Ahh ok, that might be it then, I wasn't aware it was smart enough to calculate heatwork on the fly!  I won't know what the cones say until I can open it up later today 

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Just now, liambesaw said:

Ahh ok, that might be it then, I wasn't aware it was smart enough to calculate heatwork on the fly!  I won't know what the cones say until I can open it up later today 

Then all can be good!

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2 hours ago, liambesaw said:

Ahh ok, that might be it then, I wasn't aware it was smart enough to calculate heatwork on the fly!  I won't know what the cones say until I can open it up later today 

It actually is smart enough to do that in the last segment. Very few kilns can actually make the rate so it does a reasonable job, but at some point as the elements wear enough it will be out of range. One of the temporary measures I have  used Is to drop the relay cycle time to it’s minimum of 10 seconds. This has improved the available power and evenness at the expense of relay life in the short term but got some additional firings out of old elements. There are some other tricks to squeak out some additional firings but I cannot detail them here.

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So it hit cone 5, but since it held at the lower temperature it didn't hit cone 6.  Good news is that my glazes melt at cone 5, and it was just full of planters and some porcelain glaze tests.

Now that I know it compensates at the top end, I'll just do cone 6 next time.  My elements are slowing down so I might have to use that trick

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I confirmed with Bartlett that the controller will compensate for differences in heat work at the peak of the firing, but only in cone fire mode. In custom programs it will go to the peak temp regardless of whether or not it's keeping up with the program.

If you're noticing the firing slow down enough that the controller is having to compensate, it's time to put a meter on the elements and check their resistance. Considering that the last ramp in a Slow Glaze program is only 120F/hr, if it's having to adjust to keep up with that, then they're probably due for replacement.

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3 hours ago, liambesaw said:

So it hit cone 5, but since it held at the lower temperature it didn't hit cone 6.  Good news is that my glazes melt at cone 5, and it was just full of planters and some porcelain glaze tests.

Now that I know it compensates at the top end, I'll just do cone 6 next time.  My elements are slowing down so I might have to use that trick

 

28 minutes ago, neilestrick said:

If you're noticing the firing slow down enough that the controller is having to compensate, it's time to put a meter on the elements and check their resistance. Considering that the last ramp in a Slow Glaze program is only 120F/hr, if it's having to adjust to keep up with that, then they're probably due for replacement.

Here is a handy thing to remember and  May be helpful if from time to time you have the time to observe a Bartlett controlled kiln at the various stages of firing.
The hot keys.

Specifically key 5 and observing what rate your kiln can achieve. (Best reviewed near top temp). The eight key is pretty handy as well to see how evenly your zones are performing and the impact of the current cycle time as well as the pid setting in the controller. And finally the zero key for when no one knows how long things have actually been cooking.

All have provided some insight as to what is truly going on. If you put new elements in it, it’s a great time to see if it can maintain 120f/ hr at the top temp. Many cannot, especially with some wear,  which explains why firing times often vary significantly from the scheduled times.

@neilestrick @liambesaw
I should add 45 degrees every 22.5 Minutes is  Approx. 120 degrees per hour ( Makes me crazy! They should Just put it in terms of per hour!)

6F55CFB1-48DC-4DED-ACBD-01D0B6ED37F9.jpeg.eb3b70f2f721a8c59f66927acbda7761.jpeg

Edited by Bill Kielb

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39 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said:

 

Here is a handy thing to remember and  May be helpful if from time to time you have the time to observe a Bartlett controlled kiln at the various stages of firing.
The hot keys.

Specifically key 5 and observing what rate your kiln can achieve. (Best reviewed near top temp). The eight key is pretty handy as well to see how evenly your zones are performing and the impact of the current cycle time as well as the pid setting in the controller. And finally the zero key for when no one knows how long things have actually been cooking.

All have provided some insight as to what is truly going on. If you put new elements in it, it’s a great time to see if it can maintain 120f/ hr at the top temp. Many cannot, especially with some wear,  which explains why firing times often vary significantly from the scheduled times.

@neilestrick @liambesaw
I should add 45 degrees every 22.5 Minutes is  Approx. 120 degrees per hour ( Makes me crazy! They should Just put it in terms of per hour!)

6F55CFB1-48DC-4DED-ACBD-01D0B6ED37F9.jpeg.eb3b70f2f721a8c59f66927acbda7761.jpeg

I wish it would show the rate of climb per hour instead of 22 minutes.  I really hate that because it's not useful at all, but I'm always checking it.

It does slow down at the high end, not 120f/hr, more like 60.

My plan is to order new elements when I get my show fees back.  So far these have been making it to cone 6 though so I guess I'll use them to death for now haha

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1 hour ago, liambesaw said:

I wish it would show the rate of climb per hour instead of 22 minutes.  I really hate that because it's not useful at all, but I'm always checking it.

It does slow down at the high end, not 120f/hr, more like 60.

My plan is to order new elements when I get my show fees back.  So far these have been making it to cone 6 though so I guess I'll use them to death for now haha

Just multiply in your head by 2.67 .... I think. If your relay cycle is above 10, you can squeeze a bit more by dropping it to 10 seconds.

@liambesaw
since it stopped at 2130 and the 60 degree Orton column says 2133 is cone 5-1/2, yeah probably averagingm60-80 degrees per hour. Makes sense.

Edited by Bill Kielb

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