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hershey8

Paragon 12-element kiln

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Just checking out my old Paragon after a year of being OFF. All 5- ohm elements burning bright after 5-10 minutes in on position. All 3-ohm elements burning, but with a lot less intensity. That sound about right?  ja   

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1 hour ago, john autry said:

Just checking out my old Paragon after a year of being OFF. All 5- ohm elements burning bright after 5-10 minutes in on position. All 3-ohm elements burning, but with a lot less intensity. That sound about right?  ja   

Glad they are all glowing but really depends on how they are wired. Given the same voltage the threes would be brighter than the fives so some combination of series parallel to get them to do this. Seems consistent though so likely as intended. Would need a model number or wiring diagram to confirm

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19 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

Glad they are all glowing but really depends on how they are wired. Given the same voltage the threes would be brighter than the fives so some combination of series parallel to get them to do this. Seems consistent though so likely as intended. Would need a model number or wiring diagram to confirm

That's what I thought, the 3's would be brighter if everything is in series.  But I have the reverse. I made the elements and rebuilt this kiln. Very possible with aging brain(got to blame something) that I reversed the order.  Everything is in series, and EVERY 3 ohm element is dimmer than the 5's. There are six of each, 12 total.  I'll just have to go back and ohm out my elements. Odd that every 3 is dim and every 5 is bright.  Thanks.

 

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19 hours ago, neilestrick said:

Best bet is to measure the resistance to see if they're worn. They could all be glowing but not getting hot enough to do the job.

Hi Neil...this is John  (formerly hershey, big brown dog photo with green eyes),, it's been a while, and now I'm a newbie all over again, sigh. Yeah I'll just have to check all the elements, when Bertha cools down. Always something with this ol kiln, but it's big and still does a nice bisque job.  cheers, ja ( I stopped posting because I could never get in with another computer...finally got that worked out)

 

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5 minutes ago, john autry said:

That's what I thought, the 3's would be brighter if everything is in series.  But I have the reverse. I made the elements and rebuilt this kiln. Very possible with aging brain(got to blame something) that I reversed the order.  Everything is in series, and EVERY 3 ohm element is dimmer than the 5's. There are six of each, 12 total.  I'll just have to go back and ohm out my elements. Odd that every 3 is dim and every 5 is bright.  Thanks.

 

Model number?

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2 hours ago, john autry said:

snf 24  (ser. 333266) both timer switches replaced with toggle switches.  Infinite switch is new.

Interesting a 5 in series with a 3 in series with a 3  in series with a 5 ! 16 ohms per set so they will be bright and dull during operation. The 5 ohm dimmer than the  3 ohm. So if I read the schematic right (Top to bottom for the set)  the top element of the group, dim, then bright, followed by another bright, then dim for the set.

9E4DE648-CCC6-40BE-AA72-3E5B0BE3A4AC.jpeg

Edited by Bill Kielb

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1 hour ago, Bill Kielb said:

Interesting a 5 in series with a 3 in series with a 3  in series with a 5 ! 16 ohms per set so they will be bright and dull during operation. The 5 ohm dimmer than the  3 ohm. So if I read the schematic right (Top to bottom for the set)  the top element of the group, dim, then bright, followed by another bright, then dim for the set.

 

Bill, 5's are like 1,2,3, on top and 10,11,12 on bottom . All of the 3s are in the middle. So a few minutes after start up the top three and the bottom three elements are glowing brighter than all of the  middle ones. All 5's bright, all 3's dimmer. Weird huh? I'm doing a bisque now. Will check all elements and connections when she cools down. Hard for me to imagine that I screwed up the order of elements, as I wrote everything down and took my time. but I could have. Interesting, also: Infinite switch goes from 1-max. It is set on 5 now, and I would be surprised if it cycles at that setting, probably just stays on. Don't know why it would continue to switch on and off after it reaches a high temp. Will check with Paragon on that mystery, unless you have thoughts on it.  j

 

 

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6 minutes ago, john autry said:

Bill, 5's are like 1,2,3, on top and 10,11,12 on bottom . All of the 3s are in the middle. So a few minutes after start up the top three and the bottom three elements are glowing brighter than all of the  middle ones. All 5's bright, all 3's dimmer. Weird huh? I'm doing a bisque now. Will check all elements and connections when she cools down. Hard for me to imagine that I screwed up the order of elements, as I wrote everything down and took my time. but I could have. Interesting, also: Infinite switch goes from 1-max. It is set on 5 now, and I would be surprised if it cycles at that setting, probably just stays on. Don't know why it would continue to switch on and off after it reaches a high temp. Will check with Paragon on that mystery, unless you have thoughts on it.  j

 

 

The infinite switch should cycle based on load so Definitely get the element groups correct first. The schematic shows four elements in series so if three fives are wired as such they total fifteen ohms and will be brighter than a 16 ohm group. I would make sure it matches factory wiring first and check how far the elements have increase over time. Infinite switches have been around forever, electric range burners, etc.... they work by calibrating a minimum cycle (22% if memory serves me)  and usually on high do not cycle as I recall.

For now, I would check the element groups first for correct wiring and let me pull out my old infinite switch stuff. I’ll post if I can find something easy.

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23 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said:

The infinite switch should cycle based on load so Definitely get the element groups correct first. The schematic shows four elements in series so if three fives are wired as such they total fifteen ohms and will be brighter than a 16 ohm group. I would make sure it matches factory wiring first and check how far the elements have increase over time. Infinite switches have been around forever, electric range burners, etc.... they work by calibrating a minimum cycle (22% if memory serves me)  and usually on high do not cycle as I recall.

For now, I would check the element groups first for correct wiring and let me pull out my old infinite switch stuff. I’ll post if I can find something easy.

 

24 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said:

The infinite switch should cycle based on load so Definitely get the element groups correct first. The schematic shows four elements in series so if three fives are wired as such they total fifteen ohms and will be brighter than a 16 ohm group. I would make sure it matches factory wiring first and check how far the elements have increase over time. Infinite switches have been around forever, electric range burners, etc.... they work by calibrating a minimum cycle (22% if memory serves me)  and usually on high do not cycle as I recall.

For now, I would check the element groups first for correct wiring and let me pull out my old infinite switch stuff. I’ll post if I can find something easy.

Quote

Bill, thanks for the info. I'll check wiring against schematic in the next couple of days. Hopefully I'll get a decent bisque regardless. Re the infinite switch, the setting goes up to "Max", but seems to stop cycling before  that setting. Switch is low mileage and appears to be working well.  j  

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, john autry said:

 

 

Great, good luck, seems like you have have everything necessary to figure it out. I did find the infinite switch schematic and they usually have a cam to make them go 100%. No switching on high. They also have a heater built in and bimetallic strip to cycle them based upon the burner resistance or  elements in your case. So resistance will definitely affect the timing of this switch. Diagram below to keep for future reference.

126EEAF6-DC50-4EC6-8241-47AD5199A736.jpeg

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On 3/6/2020 at 10:21 PM, Bill Kielb said:

Glad they are all glowing but really depends on how they are wired. Given the same voltage the threes would be brighter than the fives so some combination of series parallel to get them to do this. Seems consistent though so likely as intended. Would need a model number or wiring diagram to confirm

MYSTERY SOLVED,  thoughts from a kiln tech (Kilnlady): the 3 ohm and 5 ohm elements are the same length, but have a different amount of space between their loops. The elements are wound on an arbor and then stretched to appropriate length. Possible that upon start-up that the 3 ohm might glow with LESS intensity because there is more space between the windings (loops); the loops are not as close to each other, possibly allowing heat to dissipate into brick and air.   Makes sense to me. j

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3 hours ago, hershey8 said:

MYSTERY SOLVED,  thoughts from a kiln tech (Kilnlady): the 3 ohm and 5 ohm elements are the same length, but have a different amount of space between their loops. The elements are wound on an arbor and then stretched to appropriate length. Possible that upon start-up that the 3 ohm might glow with LESS intensity because there is more space between the windings (loops); the loops are not as close to each other, possibly allowing heat to dissipate into brick and air.   Makes sense to me. j

Maybe, my first impression for one radiant body being cooled so quickly by another less radiant so the first doesn’t radiate as much seems unlikely. From there we go to conduction loses but the medium is basically air. In a kiln I have never perceived the points where an element touches the brick or nearly touches as appearing cooler or dimmer because the brick was such a conductive heatsink, so I think this  explanation is fairly unlikely. 
 

He has the factory diagram and can rewire if and when necessary.

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On 3/17/2020 at 12:08 PM, Bill Kielb said:

Maybe, my first impression for one radiant body being cooled so quickly by another less radiant so the first doesn’t radiate as much seems unlikely. From there we go to conduction loses but the medium is basically air. In a kiln I have never perceived the points where an element touches the brick or nearly touches as appearing cooler or dimmer because the brick was such a conductive heatsink, so I think this  explanation is fairly unlikely. 
 

He has the factory diagram and can rewire if and when necessary.

Well, it was a thought.  I guess it's mute,as I fired 3 bisque loads of 30 bowls each, and every thing came out great. A little hot in some places, a little cool in some. But that's kilns.   Be well,   ja

 

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16 minutes ago, hershey8 said:

Well, it was a thought.  I guess it's mute,as I fired 3 bisque loads of 30 bowls each, and every thing came out great. A little hot in some places, a little cool in some. But that's kilns.   Be well,   ja

 

No worries, if it becomes too uneven or untenable ya got the diagrams to get it back to factory design.:D

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On 3/18/2020 at 9:49 PM, Bill Kielb said:

No worries, if it becomes too uneven or untenable ya got the diagrams to get it back to factory design.:D

Moot not mute...GAH!   Thanks Bill. ja

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