firing kiln in extreme cold

[Giovannaaa1109]

I have an old KM-1027 that fires great, I just fired yesterday in NY's 30 degree F weather and had no problems. Today as it got colder in the 20's my kiln is not operating properly. It turns on, but doesn't run the desired program after I press start. I thought it was running when I set and left for work. But I came back to a cold unfired kiln. 

 

Its kept covered outside in a little shed. Obviously its freezing cold and read you have to warm up the control system with a space heater etc. for it to function.  I have 2 heaters going on the control panel. Its currently at 45-49 degrees F, and I tried to run the firing, but nothing happens. No buzzes or clicks like when its functioning properly. While the firing in "running" The control panel shows the temperature rising by a degree or two, but its from the heaters. 

 

Is my control panel damaged from the cold? Do I have to keep waiting for it to warm up a even more? Was it on for too long during the day that it needs some time to rest? 

 

Of course this would happen as I have a deadline. Any advice and help would be greatly appreciated :)

[liambesaw]

Try getting a space heater and pointing it at the control box.  Type k thermocouples aren't great at temperatures below freezing, neither are relays or other components

 

 

[Bill Kielb]

On 12/18/2019 at 10:24 PM, Giovannaaa1109 said:

I have an old KM-1027 that fires great, I just fired yesterday in NY's 30 degree F weather and had no problems. Today as it got colder in the 20's my kiln is not operating properly. It turns on, but doesn't run the desired program after I press start. I thought it was running when I set and left for work. But I came back to a cold unfired kiln. 

 

Its kept covered outside in a little shed. Obviously its freezing cold and read you have to warm up the control system with a space heater etc. for it to function.  I have 2 heaters going on the control panel. Its currently at 45-49 degrees F, and I tried to run the firing, but nothing happens. No buzzes or clicks like when its functioning properly. While the firing in "running" The control panel shows the temperature rising by a degree or two, but its from the heaters. 

 

Is my control panel damaged from the cold? Do I have to keep waiting for it to warm up a even more? Was it on for too long during the day that it needs some time to rest? 

 

Of course this would happen as I have a deadline. Any advice and help would be greatly appreciated

Try and warm up the kiln and controller to be above 32 degrees. The old skutts needed a board temp above freezing before it would allow the program to run. I would warm up the inside of the kiln also so it displayed above 32 as well. I know, hard to do with a full load in the kiln.

 

[Bill Kielb]

On 12/18/2019 at 10:33 PM, liambesaw said:

Try getting a space heater and pointing it at the control box.  Type k thermocouples aren't great at temperatures below freezing, neither are relays or other components

 

 

Type K thermocouple rated down to - 450 f, usually good to -350 f plenty of use at subzero, but then again an rtd is probably easier to use.

 

 

[liambesaw]

Ahh there you go,board temp.  I guess is not the thermocouple, but when it's freezing my controller just says 0

[Bill Kielb]

4 hours ago, Giovannaaa1109 said:

I have an old KM-1027 that fires great, I just fired yesterday in NY's 30 degree F weather and had no problems. Today as it got colder in the 20's my kiln is not operating properly. It turns on, but doesn't run the desired program after I press start. I thought it was running when I set and left for work. But I came back to a cold unfired kiln. 

 

Its kept covered outside in a little shed. Obviously its freezing cold and read you have to warm up the control system with a space heater etc. for it to function.  I have 2 heaters going on the control panel. Its currently at 45-49 degrees F, and I tried to run the firing, but nothing happens. No buzzes or clicks like when its functioning properly. While the firing in "running" The control panel shows the temperature rising by a degree or two, but its from the heaters. 

 

Is my control panel damaged from the cold? Do I have to keep waiting for it to warm up a even more? Was it on for too long during the day that it needs some time to rest? 

 

Of course this would happen as I have a deadline. Any advice and help would be greatly appreciated

Here is something to try first, inspired by @liambesaw the board may not have its own sensor, warm up you thermo couple with a torch enough to try and start your controller, say 50 - 75:degrees. If it starts you may have to run a quick single segment program to say 180 degrees because you have a kiln full of cold stuff and I believe if the controller does not see a temperature rise in 7 minutes you will get an error. Since you already warmed your control up without success then it’s reasonable to assume you have an old control without a circuit board temperature sensor. Worth a try, worst case you warm up the control then when ready warm the thermocouple with a torch and start as above.

[JohnnyK]

Does your kiln have a kiln sitter by chance? Have you reset the timer?

[Dick White]

The problem in extreme cold is not the thermocouple or the control board hardware. It is the control board software. The K-type thermocouple will read temperatures well below  freezing, as noted in the table posted by Bill above. Also note in the table that the millivoltages are all negative. Several pages further down in the table, where the temperature crosses 0C/32F, the voltage turns positive. The Bartlett controllers are built to read only positive voltage from the thermocouple. It doesn't "understand" negative voltage so rather than operate in a confused manner, it turns itself off.

[Bill Kielb]

26 minutes ago, Dick White said:

The problem in extreme cold is not the thermocouple or the control board hardware. It is the control board software. The K-type thermocouple will read temperatures well below  freezing, as noted in the table posted by Bill above. Also note in the table that the millivoltages are all negative. Several pages further down in the table, where the temperature crosses 0C/32F, the voltage turns positive. The Bartlett controllers are built to read only positive voltage from the thermocouple. It doesn't "understand" negative voltage so rather than operate in a confused manner, it turns itself off.

Yes definitely a software / design choice saving a bit on addressing a condition that is unlikely rather than protecting the circuit board. There are folks that warm this stuff up and still fire in the winter so I still think worst case, she can warm the control above 32 then  warm the thermo couple to get going.

[neilestrick]

If you warm the thermocouple, you have to get the kiln turned on right away so it runs the elements and heats itself up before the thermocouple cools down. So you'll want to set the kiln to run on full speed for a few minutes so everything warms up. Then turn it off and start the regular firing. Or if you're doing a custom firing, set the first step to go full speed to 200 degrees, then into your regular firing. The other option is to set a space heater inside the kiln for an hour so that the bricks get warmed up, then load the kiln. The bricks should hold enough heat while you load that once you close the lid it'll be above 32 degrees.

[Giovannaaa1109]

Thank you to everyone who has given feedback! Ive tried a combination of everyones advice. Space heaters on the control panel, and a tiny space heater inside the kiln trying to warm up the thermocouple and bricks. Unfortunately nothing has seemed to work. With a space heater on the inside temp  would read around 120 degrees F on the control panel, and The kiln just does not run at all. The power works, I can see the current temp, but nothing further happens, no buzzes or clicks or increase in temperature. I think its just too cold outside, today was 12 degrees F outside, and no matter what it still knows its freezing out. I just hope there is no permanent damage. I plan to try and fire when its a bit warner next week in the upper 40's. 

 

 

Once again thank you to all, unfortunately I couldn't get it to work this time around. Fingers crossed for next week 

[neilestrick]

@Giovannaaa1109  Hmmm. It should work if the inside of the kiln is warmed up and the control panel is warmed up. Heat up the bricks with the space heater inside, then try blowing in through the louvers at the top of the control box with a hair dryer, so the actual circuitry on the control board warms up. It could be that the heat from the space heater isn't penetrating to the inside of the control box. Those Skutt boxes don't have a lot of air flow, especially the old ones with only 5 louvers. Don't fry it with the hair dryer, be gentle. You can test it with the kiln empty.

[liambesaw]

Does it error out or anything like that? Have you tried turning it off and back on?

You'd think that it would show an error code at least if you press start and it does nothing

[Giovannaaa1109]

No error code at all, just the current temperature after I press start. Ive turned on and off the power multiple times and still the same outcome. I think ill try Neils advice with the hairdryer directly on top of the control box along with space heaters . 

 

Nothing like this has happened before, and I usually fire when its cold, just not this extreme cold. Its just strange that after I press start, it seems like its working but nothing happens after a few minutes. 

[Bill Kielb]

1 hour ago, Giovannaaa1109 said:

No error code at all, just the current temperature after I press start. Ive turned on and off the power multiple times and still the same outcome. I think ill try Neils advice with the hairdryer directly on top of the control box along with space heaters . 

 

Nothing like this has happened before, and I usually fire when its cold, just not this extreme cold. Its just strange that after I press start, it seems like its working but nothing happens after a few minutes. 

There should be vents on the top and bottom. If you use a hairdryer you can point it at the vents on the bottom and the heat will rise through the unit easily and out the top.  This may work better than blowing it in on top. Either way, worst case when both the thermocouple and the circuit board are above 32,  ( let’s say 35 to be safe) it should start.

[Giovannaaa1109]

Still no luck  I have a mini space heater going on the inside, the bricks are nice and hot along with the thermocouple. I did the hair dryer on the top and bottom of the vents for a good 15 mins. The control panel said the current temp was 185 degrees F. I tried firing and still the same result, no buzzing no increase in temperature and basically just idle. 

 

I thought heating everything up would help, but unfortunately no difference. 

[liambesaw]

Maybe something else entirely then and the cold is just a coincidence.  You'd think it would tell ya though.  If it ain't clicking once it starts, I'd start at the relays and work back

[Bill Kielb]

On 12/20/2019 at 11:56 AM, Giovannaaa1109 said:

Still no luck  I have a mini space heater going on the inside, the bricks are nice and hot along with the thermocouple. I did the hair dryer on the top and bottom of the vents for a good 15 mins. The control panel said the current temp was 185 degrees F. I tried firing and still the same result, no buzzing no increase in temperature and basically just idle. 

 

I thought heating everything up would help, but unfortunately no difference. 

Reviewing your diagram, I cannot see a simple mechanical reason (broken wire) for all your relays to fail to fire so my suggestion is to run the diagnostic test in your manual. Specifically I would like to know if the relays can be turned on with the output test.  
This truly seemed  temperature related so if you are familiar with the manual can you display the circuit board temperature as well?

Just to add this might be a great way to prewarm the inside of your kiln in a pinch. Run the output test a couple times till the interior of your kiln is say 40 degrees or so.

I have  pasted the relevant diagnostic section(s) below

 

 

[neilestrick]

Have you opened up the control box to confirm that no wires have come loose? If the controller comes on, then the transformer is working. If it's reading the temperature, then the  thermocouple is working. That only leaves a software/hardware error in the controller, or a wire has come loose that is preventing the controller output signal from getting to the relays.

[Giovannaaa1109]

So here's a picture of my kilns control box. Naturally I can't find my manual. I looked on Skutts website of manuals, and Im pretty positive its "KilnMaster Manual For Kilns Manufactured Between November 1999 And August 2006" An oldie that doesn't have the MENU button to be able to run a diagnostic test like Bill mentioned. It says 41 degree F because I had a little space heater inside, Its currently 25 degrees F outside. 

 

I opened the control box and briefly checked the wires. From what I saw everything looked normal, and nothing looked broken. Maybe I'll try wiggling the wires to make them tighter. I just fired the day before, so I'm not sure what would randomly come loose in a day. But who knows. 

 

 

 

 

[Bill Kielb]

That looks like a 2000 - 2004 model without upgrade because of the F/C next to the display. I believe you are correct this version does not allow for diagnostics. So now you know your interior is forty degrees, I suggest you turn the power off to the controller, heat up the controller board to 40 degrees or so then turn the power back on. It likely will restart and you will be able to fire.

So the end result will be, inside of the kiln is warm and controller is warm then apply power to the control.

This control you have does not have real diagnostic function. I agree it is not likely anything else with the exception of if a little critter of some sort took refuge so a thorough examination of the inside, including the back of the circuit board is in order. All things just worked before they didn’t, but that it worked and became a warm refuge for a critter or two so this may be relevant. Covering it while still warm will trap some heat and warm air. As the control cools it is possible to have water condense on the back of the board so look closely for signs of corrosion (usually white stain). I just finished a Geil kiln as a favor for a friend  in a barn that had the smallest of openings which mice got in and chewed some wiring to their demise.

Not likely, but worth checking.

[neilestrick]

Don't just look at the connections between the box and elements. You'll want to remove the inner baffle and inspect all the wires coming off the circuit board, relays, etc.

[Giovannaaa1109]

Today in NY its 40 degrees F, I tried the mini space heater on the inside and a space heater on the outside trying to ensure everything's extra warm. Still no luck. I opened up the control box and circuit board and from what I can see I feel like everything looks relatively normal. No broken or loose wires, no thing ultra rusted or corroded. Ive attached pictures of everything, maybe Im missing something and one of you can see the problem.  

 

I feel like its more than a temperature problem at this point, its definitely warm enough and I fired the other day in much colder weather. Im not sure where to start on what to try and fix/ replace next. I will probably try and give SKUTT a call, although i don't know what they would tell me that's different than the great advice  you've all been saying over the past few days. 

 

Once again thank you for the help and assistance

[Bill Kielb]

I think you are right, although looking at your picture I see what could be scorch marks on the side of the capacitor. I would love to see an in focus picture of this area as well as the IC chip (old chip and socket susceptible to corrosion)  Seems likely new control will be in order
 

I believe a Bartlett V6 cf 700 likely will drop in this spot, but then you will need to learn the programming for it, which actually has more capability. @liambesaw priced these things recently. Might be a reasonable sort of plug and play solution that saves some $$$$ and modernizes rather than get a replacement for this outdated control.

If this  is burned out, the next suggestion would be do not cover this kiln until it is dead cold or same as outdoor temp. Covering a warm kiln increases the chances the moisture will condense on the circuit board. Of course it needs to be covered so rain can’t get in though, it was not designed to be rain tight.

pictures look  really good btw, # 2 and #6 staycon  terminals might not be fully seated. One last interesting observation, your thermocouple holder appears to be wired backwards by standard convention. . This likely has been this way forever and actually has the thermo couple backwards and then the wire reversed to correct it. There are reasons to have everything match exactly but they are of small importance and likely have little to no effect. Probably done this way at build time. Interesting!

 

[Giovannaaa1109]

Hope these pictures are a little better. Ive found this circuit board replacement on The Ceramic Shop for $255, not the worst in the world. Would this newest 700 series be compatible with my old kiln? I could ask the kiln technicians on the website. I tried to wiggle #2 and #6 tighter, but it does look a little undone compared to the others in the picture.