Wiring a Paragon Kiln

[Wyatt]

Hi,

We have a Paragon TNF kiln. Moved into a new house and the breaker box is a solid 50 feet from where the kiln needs to sit. The house has 200 amps service. Is it possible to have an electrician run copper wire for the 50 feet and just install a plug for the kiln or will this set-up require a sub-panel installation? We had an electrician come out and they recommended just doing a plug but I have been told in the past that the kiln plug should be within a few feet of the breaker box. Any help is appreciated. Thank you. 

[neilestrick]

I'd put in a fused disconnect above the outlet.

[Bill Kielb]

I like the disconnect but your electrician likely was trying to save you money or his labor or both. The general requirement is that you have a means of service disconnect within six feet of the kiln. Most AHJ (authorities having jurisdiction) allow a plug and receptacle as a suitable means of disconnect.

since this is a service disconnect, it needs to be near the machine being serviced, not the breaker box.

 

[Wyatt]

Thank you for these responses. We will definitely make sure that there is a disconnect within a few feet of the kiln. My main question is, will we have problems if we have the electrician run 50 feet of wire to a plug versus installing a sub-panel? Is this too far from the electrical panel? Sorry, my understanding of electrical wiring is limited. 

[Dick White]

The issue of "distance" from the panel is one of voltage drop. In order to deliver the necessary amperage and voltage to the target device, the wire needs to be the proper thickness. More amps requires thicker wire. That's standard stuff, kiln manufacturers list the requirements in their specifications. But excessive length of the wire may cause a decrease in the voltage. 50 feet is about as long as you can go without incurring some voltage drop. However, this can be remedied simply by increasing the thickness of the wire. When your electrician installs the wiring, ask him or her to calculate the voltage drop and upsize the cable as needed.

[Bill Kielb]

No 50 feet is fine. If the voltage drop in his opinion is excessive he will increase one or more wire size. For a 100 foot run this is almost automatic for most. He will likely increase one  wire size regardless just out of caution to limit any voltage drop. Most electricians I know do this automatically.  

I would suggest just out of caution to always increase wire by one size just to limit potential voltage drop to the kiln and it is rarely that significant in price. 

[Wyatt]

Okay, thank you for these replies. Does the wiring need to be copper? I am asking all of these questions because a kiln technician once told me that the kiln needed to be within a few feet of a subpanel or main panel and have copper wire. The electrician who came out did not really know about kilns and so I would like to be as informed as possible when I talk with him. 

[Bill Kielb]

Yes, copper for everything, our experiment with aluminum interior wiring ended 20 years ago. Aluminum interior wiring, especially in homes, is not a good thing, use copper ........ for everything for that matter.

 No it does not have to be within a few feet of the panel or a sub panel unless that is your only means of disconnecting it for service and even then many jurisdictions will require a specific means to disconnect the machine. The logic is, the device needs to be able to be disconnected from power with reasonable ease for service or in an emergency. Looking for the correct breaker generally is not the greatest way, even if it’s close.

Same rule applies to air conditioning condensers. Big load (like many kilns) there must be a service disconnect within 6 feet to shut the power off to the device.

Most locations allow the use of a plug as a service disconnect. Unplug it and power is definitely shut off to the device.

[Wyatt]

Okay, thank you very much for this response. One last question. Will this setup still work for a much larger Skutt kiln(we may upgrade in the next year or so)? Thank you. 

[Hulk]

Hi Wyatt!

You might size your wire for future, size your fused disconnect (or subpanel breaker) for current.

[Bill Kielb]

5 hours ago, Wyatt said:

Okay, thank you very much for this response. One last question. Will this setup still work for a much larger Skutt kiln(we may upgrade in the next year or so)? Thank you. 

Totally unsure here,  What size kiln do you have now?  Make, model number, Rated volts, amps and you say your distance is 50 feet. What kiln are you contemplating, make, model, size. Will both operate concurrently? Will you need cooling or are these installed outside? Any other electrical loads you will be adding?

Virtually all the TNF models call for a 6-50 amp receptacle so the base wiring is likely rated 50 amps or above (with voltage drop) with the breaker sized to the actual load. If you intend to set up a studio then I think you should plan out all these loads with some expansion capabilities for the future.

None  of this leads to whether your kiln needs to be located close to an electrical panel. If you do set up a room where you determine you will have a number of electrical loads then a sub panel may be appropriate. My suggestion is to design your sub panel to accommodate as such and check that your main panel can accommodate. Your sub panel will need to remain clear of obstruction and all the loads connected to it generally will need their own means of service disconnect regardless of whether the panel is in the same room.

The cost for adding a one hundred amp sub panel will probably be significantly more than adding two fifty amp receptacles.  Your sub panel will need to be sized for voltage drop but this time at the higher potential operating amperage and will likely require its own main breaker or means of disconnect for the sub panel.

thorough planning is probably most beneficial at this point.

 

[neilestrick]

12 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

Virtually all the TNF models call for a 6-50 amp receptacle so the base wiring is likely rated 50 amps or above (with voltage drop) with the breaker sized to the actual load.

Many kiln companies use the same 6-50 plug on all their 240/208 volt kilns up to 50 amps, regardless of the actual draw of the kiln. It makes inventory easy for them, and the only have to specify one size outlet for all their kilns. For instance, the TNF823 only pulls 30 amps, needs a 40 amp breaker, but has the 6-50 plug.

[Bill Kielb]

2 minutes ago, neilestrick said:

Many kiln companies use the same 6-50 plug on all their 240/208 volt kilns up to 50 amps, regardless of the actual draw of the kiln. It makes inventory easy for them, and the only have to specify one size outlet for all their kilns. For instance, the TNF823 only pulls 30 amps, needs a 40 amp breaker, but has the 6-50 plug.

Agree,

Sort of why I needed to know the model he has now

[Hulk]

Hi Rock!

TNF823 draws 30 amps, hence 40 amp breaker and #8 wire could be sufficient* - depending on how long that wire run is.

Paragon's website indicates that model comes with a 6-50R plug; I'd match the outlet to the kiln - new outlet, good. Likely not recommended  to downgrade the plug to a 30 amp to match your outlet.

   *Paragon's website indicates 50 amp breaker and #6 wire, hmm...

 

[Bill Kielb]

1 hour ago, Rockhopper said:

So...  If I buy a TNF823, and already have a 30amp outlet, wired with #8 wire and a 40amp breaker - would I install a 50amp outlet, to match the plug on the kiln, even though the circuit is only wired for 40amps - or change the plug to match the outlet ?   (Or, more importantly, if I change the plug to match the existing outlet, does that affect the warranty on the kiln ?)

In general The breaker always matches the load, the wire and downstream wiring always should match or exceed the breaker rating for resistive loads such as a kiln or resistance heaters. 

The breaker protects everything downstream. Wiring  and connection equipment that is oversized will run cooler, last longer. In essence the first thing to trip has to be ..........the breaker, and it should trip long before the wiring or receptacle or cord end begin to overheat and melt.

often an electrician will look at this and wire everything for 50 amps or greater and install the 40 amp breaker in your specification  as required to protect the kiln..

Like selling pottery to one user and worrying about the next potential user they realize they cannot predict what someone in the future will hook up and often  choose to match the highest rated device throughout. Which would mean 50 amp receptacle, so 50 amp  or greater wire and of course the required 40 amp breaker matching your specification.

I your case if I read the spec right above, everything needs to be upgraded per the manufacture, including wire and breaker. Manufactures are smart that way sometimes.

[neilestrick]

I don't know why Paragon is saying it should be on a 50 amp circuit when it's only a 30 amp kiln. A 40 amp circuit is within code (and the 50 is, too, technically). It's okay to have a 50 amp plug on a 40 amp line. Just put in a 50 amp receptacle to match. It's fine if things are rated higher than the breaker.

[PeppernPatches]

This is such an informative thread, thank you all for your postings. Wyatt, sorry for hijacking this thread but I hope this adds to the conversation and informs potters on what not to do. I have a Paragon TNF823 and it is located about 50ft away from the load center also. I have a 100 amp panel. The kiln sits 5'-0" away from an 10-30R outlet that is for a 30amp dryer located on the other side of the wall. An electrician came and made me an extension cord adapter so the original 6-50 Paragon plug can plug into the 1030R outlet.  He said I can swap out the kiln plug when I fire. He didn't seem to think it was a problem and I didn't know at the time anything about copper wiring gauge sizes, voltage drops, etc. I have  fired that kiln about 100 times already, and just replaced the elements, relays and thermo-couple last year. Cone 6 glaze firings take me 10 hrs on a fast fire, and 12 hours on a Ramp program with slow cooling for matte glazes. My kiln fires 1 cone hotter on bottom shelf. So if I program it to cone 5 the bottom shelf always fires to cone 6.  I now suspect my issues with long firing time  and/or uneven firing be because of the combination of improper wiring, inadequate power or voltage drop due to distance from load center. Any thoughts or suggestion would be much appreciated. I've been so ignorant on this subject and am learning things the hard way.

[Bill Kielb]

31 minutes ago, PeppernPatches said:

This is such an informative thread, thank you all for your postings. Wyatt, sorry for hijacking this thread but I hope this adds to the conversation and informs potters on what not to do. I have a Paragon TNF823 and it is located about 50ft away from the load center also. I have a 100 amp panel. The kiln sits 5'-0" away from an 10-30R outlet that is for a 30amp dryer located on the other side of the wall. An electrician came and made me an extension cord adapter so the original 6-50 Paragon plug can plug into the 1030R outlet.  He said I can swap out the kiln plug when I fire. He didn't seem to think it was a problem and I didn't know at the time anything about copper wiring gauge sizes, voltage drops, etc. I have  fired that kiln about 100 times already, and just replaced the elements, relays and thermo-couple last year. Cone 6 glaze firings take me 10 hrs on a fast fire, and 12 hours on a Ramp program with slow cooling for matte glazes. My kiln fires 1 cone hotter on bottom shelf. So if I program it to cone 5 the bottom shelf always fires to cone 6.  I now suspect my issues with long firing time  and/or uneven firing be because of the combination of improper wiring, inadequate power or voltage drop due to distance from load center. Any thoughts or suggestion would be much appreciated. I've been so ignorant on this subject and am learning things the hard way.

Yeah, doesn’t sound great. Give me some time and I will add to this response with voltage drop, etc... meanwhile, how hot does the little extension cord he made get? IF I have this model correct it draws 32.5 amps, gets wired to 40 amp breaker and uses #8 wire or better at 50 feet. So very likely you are using it with a few percent reduced power from the very beginning in a cord that might heat up and lose more capacity.

If I understand everything correctly, I am personally not impressed with what you were given to use.

[PeppernPatches]

6 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said:

Yeah, doesn’t sound great. Give me some time and I will add to this response with voltage drop, etc... meanwhile, how hot does the little extension cord he made get? IF I have this model correct it draws 32.5 amps, gets wired to 40 amp breaker and uses #8 wire or better at 50 feet. So very likely you are using it with a few percent reduced power from the very beginning in a cord that might heat up and lose more capacity.

If I understand everything correctly, I am personally not impressed with what you were given to use.

Thanks Bill. The cord doesn't get too hot, just warm to the touch. My model is a 30 amp, 240v, 7200 watt kiln and about 16 years old. I'm trying to check with the electrician on the wire gauge but I suspect it was wired for the dryer at #10. Ugh, I'm not feeling good about this either.

[Mark C.]

If you are thinking say later needing a 80-or 90 amp kiln then run wire to a 100 amp sub panel . That will make this all flexiabkle later . If on the other hand  a 60 amp kiln later  is in the plans  wire large enough  wire for that with a disconnect wired just before the outlet. I would hard wire the kiln either way and forget the outlet for better long termn results.Remenber you need extra capacity for the wire and the breakers.. Many kilns need a 60 amp circuit these days.

The 100 amp sub panel gives you lots of options later.

[neilestrick]

@PeppernPatches Code says kilns should be on a breaker that is 25% greater than the pull of the kiln. If your kiln is pulling 30 amps, then it should be on a 40 amp breaker, with the appropriately sized wire for the amperage and  possible voltage drop. If you end up running a new line for the kiln, make sure you put in conduit big enough to use larger wires in the future if in case you decide to get a bigger kiln some day.

[Mark C.]

One last note on the sub panel or a long line with a plug-just be sure the kiln is on the right size braekeer for the kiln.The sub panel will have 100 amp supply wire and the breaker fron there to kiln should be the righjt size -a 30 amp kiln should be on a 40 amp breaker for the 25% greater as Neil says above-if the kiln is a 48 amp use a 60 a amp breaker-you get the idea.

[DewDropDawn]

I have a Paragon kiln with a NEMA 6-30R plug-in: 240 Volt, 30 Amp.  Subpanel in studio supplied by 60 Amp from Main panel.  I installed a 30 Amp breaker and connected, pulled 10/3 wire which as it is new Romex provides two hots - Black and Red, a White Neutral and a Green Ground wire.  The kiln plug-in has a 3-prong (shown) 3-wire configuration so I purchased a wall outlet to accommodate it.  I need help in making sure I wire the 10/3 (with 4 wires as shown) correctly with the new outlet matching the kiln 3-prong (3-wire) plug-in.  Plug-in provides 2 hot connections and a Ground, no Neutral.   Some articles suggest connecting all but one capped off hot.  If this is accurate, do I connect the Neutral to a hot port connection.  Then, of course, Ground Green to Ground port connection?  Thanks for your help.  

    

[Bill Kielb]

3 hours ago, DewDropDawn said:

I have a Paragon kiln with a NEMA 6-30R plug-in: 240 Volt, 30 Amp.  Subpanel in studio supplied by 60 Amp from Main panel.  I installed a 30 Amp breaker and connected, pulled 10/3 wire which as it is new Romex provides two hots - Black and Red, a White Neutral and a Green Ground wire.  The kiln plug-in has a 3-prong (shown) 3-wire configuration so I purchased a wall outlet to accommodate it.  I need help in making sure I wire the 10/3 (with 4 wires as shown) correctly with the new outlet matching the kiln 3-prong (3-wire) plug-in.  Plug-in provides 2 hot connections and a Ground, no Neutral.   Some articles suggest connecting all but one capped off hot.  If this is accurate, do I connect the Neutral to a hot port connection.  Then, of course, Ground Green to Ground port connection?  Thanks for your help.  

    

Time for an electrician to inspect. There is likely no neutral in your kiln spec as 240 v single phase means two hots and a ground  and the ground attaches to the kiln shell. Post your model, distance of run and manufactures breaker recommendation. There are a myriad of potential problems here that we presently can not know.  If the kiln was rated at 30 amps continuous you would be required to use a 40 amp breaker and probably run #8 wire at a minimum. This is a kiln so limiting your voltage drop to 1% or less rather than the electrician rule of 3% or less adds  potential future firing capacity to your kilns elements.

So model of kiln,  distance of run,  temperature rating of the wire you bought probably a real good thing for you to post.

[DewDropDawn]

Thank you for this info and your wiring installation concerns.  Let me provide more info.  We had 3 estimates from licensed/bonded electricians.  All suggested 8/3 wiring from Main to Studio Subpanel and 10/3 wiring from Subpanel 30 Amp to Kiln outlet.  So the Main panel has 60 Amp, which is wired to 8/3 going out to studio where kiln will be installed/used.  At the Studio subpanel, we have a 30 Amp to serve Kiln only.  The electrician (EE) who installed  60 Amp at Main and 8/3 wiring from Main to Studio checked model, distance of run and manufacturers breaker recommendation.  All are within range and EE noted great voltage reading at Studio subpanel with only slight drop when turned on.  EE not contracted to wire wall outlet to 10/3 wiring.   That's on me.   And since I ran into the previously outlined wiring configuration difference between new outlet and older model Kiln plug in, I asked for help.  

What do you think?

Thanks