So I got another kiln....

[neilestrick 4,590]

No need for ceramic nuts.

[Bill Kielb 1,114]

1 minute ago, neilestrick said:

Not the ends where they are stripped back to bare wire and connected to the elements. The length that is inside the control box. On a setup where the system isn't external, the power cord and all other non-insulated wires are behind an insulating baffle. Everything on the other side of the baffle (feeder wires) are high temp insulated wire. So when you have non-high temp wires going directly to the elements, like in this case or on the L&L Jupiter or DaVinci models, you have to insulate those wires with sleeving. Otherwise the plastic coating will melt and the exposed wires will overheat or even contact each other or the metal jacket and short out. Insulated sleeving is cheap. Get the coated stuff so it won't unravel when you cut it.

Got it, glass or mica sleeve over the cord end. Makes sense

Edited May 6, 2019 by Bill Kielb

[NoArtist 7]

Perhaps those of us responding to this thread are the ceramic wire nuts that Bill was referring to. 

[Johnmicheal 19]

12 hours ago, shawnhar said:

John that looks perfect! - Where did you pick up the feeder and thermocouple wires? I assume you can't just use regular house wire 10/2 from the hardware store due to the heat. Also, did you just put the thermocouple where the sitter hole is?

Thanks!

McMaster Carr SEOOW

Zoom in for the specs, yes I put the thermocouple in the sitter hole, the wire is what Neal said lol.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Johnmicheal
Add info

[Johnmicheal 19]

On 5/6/2019 at 11:24 AM, neilestrick said:

I just took a closer look at your picture- why are there only two jumper cords feeding the elements? If I'm seeing it correctly, it looks like you took two 3-wire cords and used them as the 6 feeder wires? Where's the ground wire? You have to ground each section, or you've got a dangerous situation on your hands. Each section of the kiln should have its own 3 wire jumper cord to the control box, with 2 hots and a ground. The jumpers should be secured to the cover boxes on the kiln with cord grips.

Neal could I use the same 3 wire, and use one of the wires as a ground. Changing to three 3-wire cords. One cord for each section. Or could I ground to a cover on the kiln, being it'll be connected to all three sections, then connect by wire to the control box.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Johnmicheal
Add info

[Johnmicheal 19]

11 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

Agreed  looks pretty nice.

No bulkhead connectors makes me wonder about a cover since these appear crimped in place. I am assuming 3#10 cord is split between 3 circuits which 1-1/2 circuits per cord which  is a little non conventional. Equipment ground, should be to you cover and thoroughly fastened to kiln.

For the bulkhead connector a decent cord grip is easy.  As to wire temp I use Mg (mica glass) which is overkill but still find the ends burn and degrade over time at the element connectors so when you cover this it may degrade at these points or the nearby thermoplastic depending on how cool it stays. Kiln manufactures are smart in that they often bring in the main wiring in a cool spot at or near the bottom and provide a terminal block to run the higher temp wire from that point. 

Overall neat looking - stay safe

Mark, Bill, Neal I have a cover, but it doesn't support the wiring. Kind of a proof of concept. As soon as I get my parts and finish the new cover with cable grip, I'll shoot you a pic. Looking into some coated sleeving, and grounding. Love the ideas, I hope this helps you Shawn, didn't mean to highjack your feed. In the box on the wall, I kept the baffle to take some of the strain off the connection in the box, eventually I'll use a grip there too.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Johnmicheal
More info

[Bill Kielb 1,114]

On 5/6/2019 at 10:22 PM, Johnmicheal said:

Mark, Bill, Neal I have a cover, but it doesn't support the wiring. Kind of a proof of concept. As soon as I get my parts and finish the new cover with cable grip, I'll shoot you a pic. Looking into some coated sleeving, and grounding. Love the ideas, I hope this helps you Shawn, didn't mean to highjack your feed. In the box on the wall, I kept the baffle to take some of the strain off the connection in the box, eventually I'll use a grip there too.

You may want to consider flexible metal conduit (pictured below for dry conditions) to run all your circuits from the control to the kiln. It is more conventional than the pendant cords  and can carry all your circuits plus a full sized grounding conductor in an economical way. 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Bill Kielb

[Johnmicheal 19]

14 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

You may want to consider flexible metal conduit (pictured below for dry conditions) to run all your circuits from the control to the kiln. It is more conventional than the pendant cords  and can carry all your circuits plus a full sized grounding conductor in an economical way. 

What about a simple wire clamp

[Bill Kielb 1,114]

Sure,

Take all, cord grip, non metallic sheath connector, by any name I have used them  and they are great for cord grips. Very economical too.

The  stuff I mentioned above ( flexible conduit.or greenfield by some slang) is a more standard way to do this and somewhat safer since it is a metallic raceway. The thought was if you were going to add another cord for your third circuit, you might want to consider the flexible conduit and just run the necessary wires through. 3/4”  or 1”  greenfield. 

Just a  typical electrical practice that you might not realize exists.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Bill Kielb

[Johnmicheal 19]

4 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said:

Sure,

Take all, cord grip, non metallic sheath connector, by any name I have used them  and they are great for cord grips. Very economical too.

The  stuff I mentioned above ( flexible conduit.or greenfield by some slang) is a more standard way to do this and somewhat safer since it is a mealie raceway. The thought was if you were going to add another cord for your third circuit, you might want to consider the flexible conduit and just run the necessary wires through. 3/4”  or 1”  greenfield. 

Just a  typical electrical practice that you might not realize exists.

I appreciate the explanation, as well as the terminology, it helps to source this stuff. I'm diggin it.

[Bill Kielb 1,114]

2 minutes ago, Johnmicheal said:

I appreciate the explanation, as well as the terminology, it helps to source this stuff. I'm diggin it.

Your work looks good and neat. My guess is your end result will reflect the care put into it.

[Johnmicheal 19]

My feed wires and jumped wire connection. Wrapped the wire going to the controller.

[Johnmicheal 19]

I grounded the cover, which was attached to all three sections, and wrapped the feed wires till they were clear of the cover.

[Johnmicheal 19]

Box works well, I left the top and bottom open. I'm not prone to setting things where they would drop in there, and I feel better when I can see what is going on in there. In it's next upgrade, I'll probably add some more ventilation, add the other feeder wire, separating the zones, and adding the additional thermocouples for zone control. Maybe sheath the feeder wires, I like the flexible conduit and the fact it's a good ground source. We'll see, I've got to go back to makin pots.

[Bill Kielb 1,114]

@Johnmicheal

Looking better except the safety shoes of course. I have attached another style element connector just in case your top  connection starts to darken and corrode from the load. Not sure how the ring terminals will last, maybe forever but just in case. The pictures below are a typical cone art solution for these types of element terminations and are only good to about 20 amps. Over time they corrode and degrade at that level of load so we just replace them every 200  - 400 firings on the highest loaded elements as we see them darken and heat up. 

Overall Lookin neater! Just kidding about the sandals, they look ordinary.

Just finished a design for solid state relays you might want to  peek at just to give an idea of the thought and consideration progression of some of this stuff. Will do a video on the install for everyone, ends up super cheap and will fit easily and neatly into our kilns so it will be an opportunity to show typical routing, placement, and  typical electrical connections  as well as some infrared analysis so folks can see where the heat actually goes and if our design assumptions were spot on.

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Bill Kielb

[neilestrick 4,590]

Those are Paragon element connectors, and ring terminals hold up well, but you should use high temp terminals.

Looking much better!

[Bill Kielb 1,114]

10 hours ago, neilestrick said:

Those are Paragon element connectors, and ring terminals hold up well, but you should use high temp terminals.

Looking much better!

Might be great, hopefully they are. There are more mechanical joints, crimp and two clamps for one connection plus a limited contact area for ring terminals. Mid to high range loads that are field installed generally  perform better  with proper lug style connections. Most folks don’t own proper crimps to get crimp connections up to design. The mix of metals not usually the greatest as well (element, brass, steel, stainless maybe).

As long as he looks at these occasionally as I said, hopefully lasts forever. I just wanted to make sure he had an alternate for the future if needed.

Ring terminals generally come in 650, 900, and 1200  degree f flavors. 900 and 1200 likely need to be ordered and probably are not off the shelf stuff from your home hardware.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Bill Kielb

[neilestrick 4,590]

The least corrosion I see on element connectors other than crimp style are on old kilns that just use a stainless nut and bolt.

[Johnmicheal 19]

So instead of the multiple connectors, I could just lug the two wires and the element together?

[Bill Kielb 1,114]

Yes, place the feed  wires between the element and back side of the lug with the set screw bearing on the element wire. In other words, don’t let the set screw bear on the stranded feed wires, Trap  them between the element and V groove of the lug. Strip both wires maybe 1-1/2” twist tightly in a neat pigtail and trim to about 3/4”. Insert neatly in lug and tighten very securely. These  lugs are cheap  and reasonably effective and have been in use for many years.