Greenman67 Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 Hello All! I am hoping to get some advice please. I have a Paragon A82B3. It was working fine 5 years ago but it went through two moves (to Ohio then back to Texas) and now only 2 of the 4 elements are firing. Thinking that two elements might be bad, I replaced all the elements with a brand new set of 4. I still have the same problem after replacing them. The first element on the top, and the third element down are not firing or getting hot ( I did a paper test that was suggested). I am getting current to all of the leads that go to the elements, the connectors are brand new and very tight. I don't really mind replacing the elements since they probably needed it anyway. I don't mind replacing the relay, or the switches next, but I would like to pick the best choice first to avoid added costs! Thanks for any advice!! Kind Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liambesaw Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 Since you're able to test the current on the element leads, can you test the switches and relays as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenman67 Posted March 30, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 I was comfortable testing the leads, but I'm not sure what I'm doing when it comes to testing the switches and relays. It seems logical that the problem is in there and somehow, the resistance of of the elements is perhaps causing an issue with the the relay distributing power? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenman67 Posted March 30, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 There are two switches on the kiln. One controls the top two elements and the other controls the bottom two. Both are working independently but they only heat up one of the elements that they are attached to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick White Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 Your kiln is a manual kiln - there are no relays, just switches. The 4-way rotary switch works as follows: On low, only one element of the pair is turned on. On medium, both elements are turned on but they are connected in series. On high, both elements are turned on but they are now connected in parallel, which generates more heat than when connected in series. Check again with the switches at all the various settings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 HERE is a wiring diagram. Make sure you have the elements connected to the switches properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 On 3/29/2019 at 9:28 PM, Dick White said: Your kiln is a manual kiln - there are no relays, just switches. The 4-way rotary switch works as follows: On low, only one element of the pair is turned on. On medium, both elements are turned on but they are connected in series. On high, both elements are turned on but they are now connected in parallel, which generates more heat than when connected in series. Check again with the switches at all the various settings. Nice! Beat me to it! @Greenman67 Your circuit diagram is below. Dick is spot on. I would think it’s unlikely both switches are identically defective so move them to high and your elements should come on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenman67 Posted March 30, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 Thanks all. I have the instruction manual for the kiln that shows the wiring diagram you've shared and I did check the wiring, but after the responses, I went and double checked. I thought that I may have had a loose connection due to the moves from Texas to Ohio to Texas, but all the connections were tight and in the correct place according to the diagrams. I do have both switches set to high, but I also checked them at all again to be sure. This is a picture of both switches on high and the elements that are on. The other elements do not heat at any setting. I agree that it would seem unlikely that both switches have the exact same problem, or that there is the exact same fault outside each switch that affects them similarly. I was thinking a bad wire, but again, the troubleshooting part of me wonders about the likelihood of a bad wire on each switch. Thanks again for all the feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 Just curious any change on medium AND low? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenman67 Posted March 30, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 Bill Kielb, no change in the elements that are not functioning. The hot elements do start to cool when I switch to low. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 Hey, one last look at this, it appears to be a 240volt kiln. If so, do you have both 120v legs live? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenman67 Posted March 30, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 I'm not sure what you mean Bill. How could I check this? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 The wiring diagram indicates the plug has four prongs, two for Power, Line 1, line2, one distinctly for a neutral wire and one distinctly as a ground. IF I look at the diagram it appears to be wired for 240v. Anything on the side of the kiln that confirms this would be helpful. It’s old so it may say 220 or 230 or 240 depending on its age. If we confirm that it is then I believe you have 1/2 the service to it which actually sort of explains the mysterious operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liambesaw Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 I was thinking the same after hearing that only one element on each switch is heating up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 Interesting kiln appears to use 120v and 240v so neutral required! Cool! ......... I mean I hope hot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenman67 Posted March 30, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 So, is it it possible that the electricians who wired in our recepticle may have not wired a necessary part, or mis-wired? Yes, I very much hope hot too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 Yes very likely. If you can take a picture of the 1) plug 2j outlet 3j back of outlet, turn power off first. Want to see the wires 4) wiring to kiln sitter I know it’s a bit but I would like to be reasonably certain when I tell you since you have a meter I would like to know what voltage is measured between the two parallel spades (outlet) as well. Sorry a bit to do, but I would like to be sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenman67 Posted March 30, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 Bill, thanks a million for your help in this. I have a few pictures, but I think you may have guided me right and I'll just attach a few. This is a 4 prong plug and outlet, yet they have used a three wire connection and a jumper (the little green wire just connects the two). I would think that this would need to have all 4 wires connected, not jumpered over as each has a purpose in the wiring diagram. Thoughts? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 It’s actually kind of ok. They did not have an earth ground in the old range cable so they bonded it to the neutral which is bonded to ground in the panel. Not necessarily code anymore but it should not affect operation. The danger is if the neutral conductor is compromised there is no independent ground for safety. Old three wire cable so I get why they did it. Connections are old and ugly, but this should give you what you need. 240V single phase at the kiln. any chance one of those cartridge fuses is blown? I see they feed at least one other load or sub panel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 In 240 volt system, you've got two 120 volt lines. In most 240 volt electric kilns, the elements run on 240 volts. That is, each end of the element is connected to a 120 volt line. In your kiln (and some other older, small kilns), the elements are actually running on 120 volts. The ends of the element connect to one 120 volt line and a neutral to complete the circuit. You've basically got two 120 volt systems rather than one 240 volt system, if that makes sense. You've got 4 elements, so each of the 120 volt lines is feeding two elements. If one of those lines is dead, two of your elements will be out. It looks like they've hooked up 4 lines, so I'm betting one of your fuses is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenman67 Posted March 30, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 So, l turned the power off, (angered my wife), checked the fuses with the meter. Both are good. I sanded the fuse terminals lightly and the contacts. Reinstalled fuses, powered up, powered kiln to high, amd same results. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 Sorry, my best guess from a distance. Apologies to the misses! Without taking a meter and jump shooting through the kiln myself I am left to believe two identical bad switches which seems unlikely so somewhere for some reason this kiln likely does not have full power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenman67 Posted March 30, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 No worries! Thank you for taking the time to try and help me with this. Also, I did forget to add one of the pictures you requested. The two hot holes seem to be giving full power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 @Greenman67 You need to trace the power through the kiln system and see where it stops. It's possible that one side of the sitter is dead. When you push in the power button on the sitter, two plates come together to close the circuit. I have seen kilns where the plates are so corroded that the electrical flow stops. You can use your meter to check for continuity across the power in and power out sides of the sitter. Unplug the kiln first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 @Greenman67 No sitter in this kiln drawing. If all else fails and you can send a decent picture of the wiring I will annotate it later to show what voltages should be and where to measure it. I just cant do it now as I am late for a meeting. Good luck, send best picture if you are still stumped, you will be able to figure this out! Stay safe, turn power off if uncertain! sitting here before my meeting, Strike the sitter comment, I see sitter in it’s own box in the kiln and separately piped to controls so definitely worth checking as Neil said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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