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Oxyprobe Axner vs Bailey


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Been firing it for Over a year now.  Firing it today actually (soda) just finished a regular reduction firing in the other kiln yesterday.. They ended up buying a second used Alpine for strictly reduction. I should be there later and will get some pictures of their fired stuff

 

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I used to salt fire an old Alpine in undergrad. The wash did a good job of protecting the face of the bricks, but the vapor would get behind the bricks through cracks and gaps and melt them out from the back. Suddenly a hole would open up in a brick that wasn't there before. And the burner ports would melt so bad that the bricks would ooze down and block the burner flame, so you had to clean them out with rebar durning the firing. Beautiful pots came out of that kiln!

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On 12/13/2018 at 7:34 AM, neilestrick said:

You're soda firing the Alpine?

Pictures as promised. We have two artists that fire soda very differently, Linda Kiepke and Jean Burnett. Linda soda fires cone 6 (Straight Sodium Bicarbonate). Jean fires cone 10 standard soda with reduction. Both lead firing teams and have developed their application methods. As to application everything is injected as dry powder through a blower system. A bit unique! The pictures give a flavor of the work.  They produce many unique interesting pieces.

The old Alpine was converted, patched and coated with ITC 100. From there the worst areas are simply patched as they become an issue. The ITC 100 actually seems to have limited the interior vapor intrusion into the bricks significantly and we are guessing maybe 100 firings before significant rebuild. I believe they have 20 - 30 firings on it right now.

Four injection ports were placed in the sides of the kiln and the front site ports can be used if so desired.

The repurposing of the old kiln and purchase of a used Alpine allowed them to complete the installation including the monitor system, new high limits, new pilot safety on the Soda Alpine, Oxygen probes for both. exhaust blower for the kiln room, combustion air, soda delivery blower, laser, electric throughout, medium pressure gas extension and regulator, and general upgrades for the new (used) Alpine which came from a school and only had a couple firings on it.

Too many things to list for about 20K but well worth it in my opinion. The graphic monitor has allowed them to accelerate the reduction learning curve and believe it or not makes it pretty easy to down fire and grow crystals.

At some point in the future they will need to rebuild the soda kiln or purchase a new one. For now they are firing away and having fun.

Pictures:

  • Linda Kiepke Vase (Cone 6 soda only)
  • Jean Burnett Vase (Cone 10 with reduction)
  • Beginning Body Reduction flame (Today)
  • Beginning Body reduction Monitor screen (Today)
  • Soda Injection (Today)

I think we are pleased with the success of this project at this point. It has been a productive journey for all involved.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I would not mess with rebuilding that kiln when it dies. Those kiln have one 4.5" layer of bricks, backed up by something else. If it was made in Elk Grove Village, IL or Sturtevant, WI, that backup layer is vermiculite and Portland cement. If it was built in California, we don't know what it is. Any record of what they used prior to the move to Illinois was lost. It could be the same thing, it could be an asbestos material. Either way, it will be a bear to tear it out, and a bear to rebuild it. Working within a frame is not easy, and the angled walls of that model make it even more complicated. I would have the whole kiln body hauled away, and build a new kiln, re-using the burner system. Plus a new kiln could be built with a hard brick interior and soft brick exterior, which would provide greater durability and improved insulation compared to what you could do inside that frame.

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7 hours ago, neilestrick said:

I would not mess with rebuilding that kiln when it dies. Those kiln have one 4.5" layer of bricks, backed up by something else. If it was made in Elk Grove Village, IL or Sturtevant, WI, that backup layer is vermiculite and Portland cement. If it was built in California, we don't know what it is. Any record of what they used prior to the move to Illinois was lost. It could be the same thing, it could be an asbestos material. Either way, it will be a bear to tear it out, and a bear to rebuild it. Working within a frame is not easy, and the angled walls of that model make it even more complicated. I would have the whole kiln body hauled away, and build a new kiln, re-using the burner system. Plus a new kiln could be built with a hard brick interior and soft brick exterior, which would provide greater durability and improved insulation compared to what you could do inside that frame.

Maybe, Removal is probably inevitable. Bores indicate firebrick front and sides, rear wall is uncertain. Top appears to be standard vermiculite and refractory cement. Pretty simple kiln but select brick replacement is possible should they want to pursue that.  As far as reusing the burners they are the standard Alpine aweful ones imbeded slightly in the ports with no real flame retention nozzle to speak of so reusing these probably not a wise choice.

My guess extend service for a year or so with select brick replacement. At that point they need to debate relocation to a larger building and perhaps their new space would be more conducive and provide more sophisticated choices. Currently if they water inject they would need to add a great deal of designed exhaust and make up air so everything works well together as is  in a tight space and they do get spectacular results.

next change will likely be a large one.

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On 12/15/2018 at 2:01 AM, Dick White said:

Bill, can you tell me more about the controller program. The picture appears to show it running on a Windows computer.

Thanks

dw

It’s actually simpler than that. We created the monitor using PLC stuff which is an industry staple. Industry has used this equipment for years so there are many really economical ways to do this now. Originally we needed to replace one of the old high limits on the soda Alpine and the quotes we received were in the 1-2k range . Well for less than that we could replace all and digitize the whole room using PLC touch screen stuff so that’s how we ended up creating this.

  • Picture 1 below is a shot of the very economical solo temperature controllers used as high limit and for their communications capability which started the whole thing. These are less than 50 bucks each I believe.
  • Picture 2 is the PLC and touch screen  installed in a simple electrical junction box ( no frills enclosure) all for underm1000 bucks as I recall.

the interesting part was all of these controls could act stand alone so at any point the user could simply fire using the digital temperatures in the picture and the monitor could be completely shut off. This allowed us to build gradually to our budget and even if something failed it was way better than the hand held pyrometer they were using to fire.

of course the monitor has super utility with a web server built in and all sorts of neat stuff too numerous to list. I have a long instructional video below you can  skip through, It is for the members. I am working on a shorter version showing how easy this actually was  to create and should put it up on the Madison Pottery you tube channel  in early January.
 

 

 

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  • 1 year later...
4 hours ago, jimluyten said:

what do the actual data look like from the probe? Ours can vary wildly sometimes, perhaps due to the onset of turbulence as the reduction sets in...

 

does anyone have a plot of the voltage over time along with temp plot?

 

I find the data are good. Responsive to turbulence but that is a function of how effective you are keeping secondary air from infiltrating. I have data from body reduction until the finish at fifteen minute recorded samples. I have this for  both  the oxyprobe and Geil probe. Both are responsive and both quickly tell when oxygen is infiltrating in.

Mounting locations tested: rear of updraft (fixed), front door of updraft (removable) and downdraft within the first third of the flue. All indicate consistently and all indicate fairly rapidly when unwanted air is circulating in the kiln. As a result, all the data is very smooth and dialed in to preference. 

As a result, nearly all firings are consistent and predictable with respect to reduction. Having a computer monitor is really beneficial for repeatability and to speed up the learning curve.

All the probes output some level of voltage that corresponds to a level of oxygen. Potters and potters kilns can only achieve a portion of the measured range because of their design and need for secondary air. 0.7-0.8 is probably as heavy as can be achieved. Generating excess soot in general interferes with reduction and does not necessarily enhance carbon trapping.

In general the probes read extremely steady when the operator keeps excess secondary air out.

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A couple of points in terms of location. Geil likes his probes in the flue before the damper with the thinking that the temps are less and the platuuim wire will last longer. This is very true (As I have gone thru many a wire burning out at cone 11 over the years in my door on my downdraft)  if you can place yours there it will last longer. In terms of turbulence my updraft kiln has it in the door (not in a spy hole) but it a turbulant spot and the readings vary more there..

Bill my reading are more like 55-or 58 -maybe my digit is moved over one past yours??

 

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2 hours ago, Mark C. said:

A couple of points in terms of location. Geil likes his probes in the flue before the damper with the thinking that the temps are less and the platuuim wire will last longer. This is very true (As I have gone thru many a wire burning out at cone 11 over the yeras in my door on my downdraft)  if you can place yours there it will last longer. In terms of turbulence my updraft kiln has it in the door (not in a spy hole) but it a turbulant spot and the readings vary more there..

Bill my reading are more like 55-or 58 -maybe my digit is moved over one past yours??

 

No, sorry  I should have said those are volts or expressed them in millivolts as well.  In my world or to a lot of Potter graphs would be .55. - .58 v. Most probes will go to 1.2v in outer space like oxygen conditions but Potter kilns can’t  get there. I have seen it expressed both ways but most often graphed in volts ala John Britt. My observed top end would be 70-80  expressed in millivolts. 

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In both my gas kilns my reduction is in middle  to upper 50's  on the meter-I have a friend who really reduces heavy in the 60's.He has a Geil probe. I Have 4 probes from axner. Two very old and two pretty new-they all are at long ones for thick wll kilns. Geil now uses some magic suace on the wire tip to protect it. I have a friend who just had Geil rebuild his probe. I personally like my wire tip back a bit in the proterction tube. I reacently broke a tube (outer casing and ordered some (hollow at both ends) from China thru e-bay and they work great.I am stocking a few spares now as they can break pretty easy.

I think I have been thru at leat 4 wire repair jobs maybe even 6 over time as they break after hundreds of fires at cone 11.All my meters are fixed and never move around.I have two spare meters and probes right now so I can keep working with a meter if one is sent away for repair. I have growen to like the meters as my wife can keep the numbers in check if I am away.  I was firing by what I call seat of my pants(no meter) for a few decades but others could not ever help with reduction as its learned skill. I still have that skill but the meter makes it easy for anyone (the masses) to use.

One note on meter use is that the smallest micro adjustment can really affect reduction -I'm talking about the smallest damber movement-thats where the meter shines so much as it shows the 1/32 movement and the huge jump that can make in terms of reduction.

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1 hour ago, Mark C. said:

In both my gas kilns my reduction is in middle  to upper 50's  on the meter-I have a friend who really reduces heavy in the 60's.He has a Geil probe. I Have 4 probes from axner. Two very old and two pretty new-they all are at long ones for thick wll kilns. Geil now uses some magic suace on the wire tip to protect it. I have a friend who just had Geil rebuild his probe. I personally like my wire tip back a bit in the proterction tube. 

One note on meter use is that the smallest micro adjustment can really affect reduction -I'm talking about the smallest damber movement-thats where the meter shines so much as it shows the 1/32 movement and the huge jump that can make in terms of reduction.

In the event this helps someone Ceramic tubing is available at McMaster Carr, rated 3000 f + I believe. I used the sleeve in both locations angle cut at the tip  to protect the probes themselves and thus far this seems to have made them sturdier. The removable probe is such because this is a soda kiln with reduction capability so at some point the probe is removed and stored. We used a bigger ceramic tube to slide into for safer hot storage. The original plan was to wrap the sleeve with insulation if thermal shock started to damage the probes or the protective sleeves. Thus far after many firings they seem to be performing well.

In my opinion, your last comment is spot on, as without a probe it is really hard by seat of the pants to adjust that damper 1/32 of an inch.

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