Is this old kiln worth restoring?

[theryster]

Hello,

I did a few forum searches for 'old kiln' and 'restoration' but I would imagine this is a case-by-case topic, but apologies if this has been answered before and I would appreciate any links to those threads.

I recent;y acquired a Bailey 327-1 (240v, 1phase, 43amp, 2350 degF) with LT-3K sitter,  it has 2 elements up top, 3 at the bottom and one on the floor, and it looks just like this one. my measurements put it at a 6.5 cu ft kiln?

I think it was sitting for a decade, or more.

- the bottom metal is rusted and gone, so when it moved from seller to home, the floor insulating stone now has hairline cracks all across it, between element grooves and to the side wall. chunks arent missing from the floor, you can just see little cracks now. 

- the elements are all rusted ,and they are coming out in 100s of pieces when removed

- the groove's lip that the elements sit in are breaking off in some spots, flaked off, were very crumbly, in many places when removing the old rusted elements.

- its pretty clean inside, no chunks of insulation missing, not much discoloration and no glaze drips

So, restore or trash?

I'll need a solid base. I'm so scared to lift it from where it sits with no bottom support as I think that's what created those bottom cracks when we loaded it up in the truck. right now I slid plywood under it then built a ramp to slide it down like a sled into the garage and i can slide it around the garage just to work on it. I do have the metal frame stand but afraid to use it unless i have a sheet of steel under the kiln. I think that would be the most stable solution, slide steel plate under kiln, tilt/lift plate, slide stand under, set down. But steel is expensive! Another option is: I could buy cinder blocks to form a base, and I already have enough firebricks to make a layer above the cinder blocks. That would be way cheaper but getting the kiln up that much higher would be trickier.

Next are the elements, they aren't cheap and I need 5 (it came with one new one I hope I can use) 

lastly, the insulation.. does this stuff dryrot? How do I tell if  it's good?

the wiring, well, I'll open that box up and look but from what i've seen, there really isn't much to it.

thanks

ryan

 

 

[JohnnyK]

Welcome to the Forum, Ryan...Neil Estrick would probably be the best person to direct you here, but from a general standpoint it comes down to how much you want to invest in this puppy to make it totally functional. How experienced are you in ceramics? You must have some if you are considering rebuilding this kiln for your own personal use. having spent almost 40 years in the home remodeling business, my basic policy was If it cost more than half of a new unit to rebuild a very old unit , you would probably be better off buying the new unit.

Could you provide pix of the inside of the kiln? They would give us a better idea of the overall condition of the kiln.

JohnnyK

[neilestrick]

Pics, please. No way to tell without looking at it. You may not need to replace the floor. You'll definitely need elements. Beyond that the pics will tell.

[Stephen]

me I wouldn't mess with something like that unless you just want the project. I mean yes new 7cf kilns cost a couple grand but they also have electronic controlers, lifts, stands and everything is brand new. You could end up a grand in this ol beast and you will still have an old kiln that has been banged around. 

If ya need a $500 kiln just wait until one pops up that can be fired as is. Sure you might need a set of elements sooner than new but a set of elements last a couple hundred firings and they are lots of people that buy and install kilns that don't fire that often so the elements are fine. If you are willing to use a kiln sitter plenty pop up all the time on CL (at least in my area) and also the public auction boards have them. The going rate seems to be a couple hundred for old beat up ones and $400-$500 for ones that have been taken care of. Do yourself a favor and buy one that has been taken care of. 

kilns look solid but they are not and when people start moving them around or worst leaving them outside in the rain and possibly snow they get trashed. 

[theryster]

Sorry for not including pics, here they are attached, hope you can see the cracks on the bottom close-up. there are a few more not photo'd that are the same size/length/run from element to element channel

as far as overall cost, the kiln was free... with the purchase of 60 new pieces of furniture (4 large platforms etc) 30 boxes of cones, 2 exhaust fans with flashing, and one new element, all for a very reasonable price of $300. So that's what I have in it.

and it has a kiln sitter LT-3K you can see in the pictures (if it works)

So i think I have everything except the bottom foundation secured and working elements, assuming the electronics work.

From the pics you can see that I've pulled out 3 of the elements, and did a light vacuum. They left behind rust stains and I have yet try to push/pull the element metal that goes through the insulation. I'm wondering how spotless those channels need to be.

 

thanks for the replies so far.

Ryan

p.s. yes I have taken years of ceramics classes at the local community college, placed a few pieces in art shows, use my pieces daily, need to make some custom tiles for a pond that would set me back $5,000 retail (my woman has good taste), and have 2 little kiddos we want to teach pottery to.

[Mark C.]

Listen to Neil on this one. He's the one who knows the most on on your question about is it worth it. For sure all the elements are toast .

It would help him I'm sure to see photo of the inside of the  electrical (red box opened) box 

[neilestrick]

The bricks are in great condition other than the rust. If there are large deposit of rust in the element grooves, see if you can scrape them out with a wire brush.  Clean grooves=longer element life. With that much rust everywhere, I'm betting the wiring is not in good condition. I would get a new wiring harness so you can start with good, clean connections. Wiring is inexpensive. Use emery cloth on all the connection tabs on the switches if they're corroded. Go through the sitter and make sure all the connections there are in good condition, too, especially the contact plates that come together when you push the power button. It looks like it should be a good kiln once you get it cleaned up and put in new elements and wires.

[Pres]

Neil,

Good advice for all of us using electric, all the way around. I have made it a point to brush out element holders every few firings, and also clean out/replace holders if replacing elements. Periodically a good thing is shut off the breakers to the kiln, and remover the cover on main box to check on the wiring inside. Years of use pretty well fries all of the insulation.

Thanks for the great advice.

 

best,

Pres

[oldlady]

theryster,  another thing you might do is send all these photos to jim bailey at baileypottey.com .  he is interested in how his equipment lasts when in use and in storage.  just a courtesy to the maker.   he may have additional suggestions.

 

to neil, the age of that kiln precludes electronics, doesn't it?    nothing electronic in it, just a mechanical sitter.

[Stephen]

I'm seriously not arguing here I am just curious how much money and time do you guys estimate it will take to put this kiln back into service? I answered the way I did because the OP specifically asked if it was worth fixing this kiln, not if it could be fixed. Any kiln can be fixed. I see pristine looking old kilns with sitters pop up all the time for less than the cost of a set of elements.

[neilestrick]

2 hours ago, oldlady said:

theryster,  another thing you might do is send all these photos to jim bailey at baileypottey.com .  he is interested in how his equipment lasts when in use and in storage.  just a courtesy to the maker.   he may have additional suggestions.

 

to neil, the age of that kiln precludes electronics, doesn't it?    nothing electronic in it, just a mechanical sitter.

Probably no electronics. There are some manual kilns that have a relay in there but most likely not. If so, it would be cheap to replace the relay, too.

[neilestrick]

2 hours ago, Stephen said:

I'm seriously not arguing here I am just curious how much money and time do you guys estimate it will take to put this kiln back into service? I answered the way I did because the OP specifically asked if it was worth fixing this kiln, not if it could be fixed. Any kiln can be fixed. I see pristine looking old kilns with sitters pop up all the time for less than the cost of a set of elements.

Just the cost of new elements, usually about $52 per element, and a wire set, under $50. Time-wise, it depends on your familiarity with kilns , but likely an afternoon of your time.

[Stephen]

59 minutes ago, neilestrick said:

Just the cost of new elements, usually about $52 per element, and a wire set, under $50. Time-wise, it depends on your familiarity with kilns , but likely an afternoon of your time.

got it. ya know if you think he's better off sinking money into this kiln instead of waiting for a better cared for one then I concede to your expertise. 

Ya know I think I am probably biased toward starting new and then wearing out stuff myself. When I was going broke trying to launch a full time pottery business on the cheap I looked at a bunch of these old kilns and it just seemed (without any real knowledge on my part) not worth it to spend the time and money on old kilns when I wanted/needed to make pots. I do get that many of you do this and get years of great service. 

I read other threads where folks have to buy new parts for the sitter and this and that. You talked about in one thread bricks wearing out quickly if the kiln was fired to close to rating. He also mentioned bottom metal gone, chunks of brick missing, lots of cracks and that the bricks were crumbling that hold the elements, etc

One thing that stood out to me when I was looking at them is that once in a few hundred you just have to keep going until you are finished and that made me back away and just buy a new kiln.

I will point out that from the OP I didn't get the impression he knows anything about repairing kilns.  

[Benzine]

9 hours ago, Pres said:

Neil,

Good advice for all of us using electric, all the way around. I have made it a point to brush out element holders every few firings, and also clean out/replace holders if replacing elements. Periodically a good thing is shut off the breakers to the kiln, and remover the cover on main box to check on the wiring inside. Years of use pretty well fries all of the insulation.

Thanks for the great advice.

 

best,

Pres

Yes indeed Pres!

I just got done, replacing the elements in my classroom kiln.  They were SUPER overdue for changing, but the kiln was still firing consistently, so I held off, as long as I could.

With the L&L we have, I have to take the terminal covers/ cages off, and it is recommended that the terminals be replaced as well.  So since I have to take the ceramic terminal blocks off too, I figured I might as well go nuts with the maintenance job.  There was quite a bit of corrosion on terminal covers, in them and just everywhere in general.  

So all of that got cleaned up, the wires wiped down, and checked, in regards to the insulation condition.  And, while I was at it, I took all the handles, lid chains, etc off, cleaned them up, and wiped down the outside of the kiln.  I had a student comment, "Did you get a new kiln?"  I wouldn't say it looks that good, but it's definitely an improvement.

[Pres]

Takes a beating and keeps on cooking, L&L! Don't need a jingle, but sometimes it is the way I feel about them. I hope to replace my full manual someday with the same size, but with full controller. Great job on the cleanup, makes certain the kiln will last you a long time. Now, have you spoken to any admins about this maintenance work you have put in to save the district money? Always helps to at least let them know you have maintained the kiln. Sometimes they check over expenditures and $50+ for each element really does not compute to them.

 

best,

Pres

[S. Dean]

4 hours ago, Pres said:

Takes a beating and keeps on cooking, L&L! Don't need a jingle, but sometimes it is the way I feel about them. <snip>

In true Timex style, how about "Takes a beating and keeps on heating" 

[theryster]

Thanks all.

Yes, Stephen, I have zero knowledge of kiln repair, I mean, that's why I'm here posting  I would consider myself capable of repairing or upcycling almost anything, or at least be able to recognize when it's beyond my capabilities.  I understand thermodynamics and other various law of physics that something like this operates under. I was most worried about the hairline cracks in the floor insulation brick, but since no one has raised them as a red flag, I am feeling confident that I can salvage this.  

Some of the channel lip is crumbling off as seen in the pictures, but no large chunks are missing, and it looks as if the channel is still deep enough to hold a new element without popping out. I have a large set of small wire brushes (thanks china and ebay) that I'll use to try and clean out the element channels as best as possible to remove rust left behind from removing those old elements. Assuming it is manual, looks so,  I can easily create a new wiring/relay harness with materials I already own and I'll thoroughly clean all contact surfaces. 

So, at this point it's sounding like 5 new elements since I have one, and loss of a little wire and wear on tools to be around $300 additional funds I'll sink into it to get it to fire up in order to test heating capability / functionality. Still leaves what to do about the floor... steel plate up on the metal stand or the cinder block/firebrick platform, or somethign else to shore up the bottom of this kiln since the bottom pan is rusted out? You can totally see a chunk of metal that peeled back and is sticking out away from the kiln in one of the first pics of the entire kiln. Thanks again for all the info. 

 

 

[neilestrick]

The bottom steel plate is only an issue if it's keeping the kiln from sitting level. The problem with this kiln design is that they made it to be one big unit, rather than building it in sections. Doing any sort of repairs to the floor or walls is a major undertaking. Sectional kilns are much, much easier to work on. Luckily, you don't need to replace any bricks. The bottom pan is necessary to hold the floor to the walls when moving the kiln, but as you can see it just rusts out and become a mess. Replacing the bottom steel plate is not necessary or worth the effort. Set the kiln up on some blocks and scrape away all the rusted metal. It could be that the entire sheet metal bottom just needs to go away, and that's fine. When moving the kiln after that, you'll have to see if the floor is attached well enough to move the kiln by the handles, or if you'll have to grab it by the edge of the floor when lifting. The key is getting the kiln to sit on the stand or cinder blocks without rocking.

[oldlady]

did you say you intended to use a wire brush in the element grooves?  kiln bricks are VERY soft and delicate.  you can crush it with your hand.  try a vacuum with a very narrow crevice tool.  if you do not have one, make a smaller opening with duct tape and suck out everything you can.  be really careful not to damage the bricks.

you will be learning an entirely new vocabulary as a potter, i am trying to figure out if your reference to "platforms" could mean full shelves.  shelves also come in half sizes.  and "channel lips" are the edge of the element grooves, i think.   if you replace the elements be careful to seat the wires into the grooves as deeply as possible.  doing this could be a little difficult, that is why i suggested you contact the manufacturer.  jim bailey is a real human being and would like people to be happy using the things he designed and built.  i am sure he has encountered a number of situations and can suggest ways to improve your kilns performance.  he has great technical folks working for him.  ask him about the rust, sounds unusual.

 cone boxes have labels so it sounds like you got 10 boxes of each cone, 5,6 and 7.  good!!  are they tapered cones and not cone bars for the sitter?

have fun with the whole process and keep us informed as you go along.

[Benzine]

20 hours ago, Pres said:

Takes a beating and keeps on cooking, L&L! Don't need a jingle, but sometimes it is the way I feel about them. I hope to replace my full manual someday with the same size, but with full controller. Great job on the cleanup, makes certain the kiln will last you a long time. Now, have you spoken to any admins about this maintenance work you have put in to save the district money? Always helps to at least let them know you have maintained the kiln. Sometimes they check over expenditures and $50+ for each element really does not compute to them.

 

best,

Pres

I told our Associate Superintendent/ Business Manager (Many of my District's staff wear multiple hats), that I would be doing the maintenance myself.  Other Administrators in the District also know, that I save around $500 a year by recycling clay.  I definitely promote the program all I can.

[Pres]

Good job, Ben, sometimes you  have to blow your own horn just to keep them updated. Even worse, if they get surprised by a bit of information at an awkward time.

 

 

best,

Pres

[Benzine]

On 8/27/2018 at 6:37 PM, Pres said:

Good job, Ben, sometimes you  have to blow your own horn just to keep them updated. Even worse, if they get surprised by a bit of information at an awkward time.

 

 

best,

Pres

I've never been turned down for a materials request yet, and I do all I can to keep it that way, by keeping the bosses happy, and making the department look as efficient as possible.

Also, my Art Club made mugs for the whole building Staff last year, for National Teacher's Day.  I made sure that Central Office Staff, including the Superintendent, and Associate Super, both got mugs as well.

[Pres]

Yeah, I would make vases, jars and retirement jars for folks in the district. Christmas ornaments, mugs for birthdays, and other assorted pieces. In the long run, if it looks like you are part of the team, and act as part of the team, the team usually backs you.

 

best,

pres

[theryster]

update:

 

slow and..slower progress with this as I'm very busy with life at the moment... 

carefully pulled half the coils out, and in the process the groove lips are crumbling. There is no other way to get them out, just pulling the small pieces straight out. Once all the elements are out I'll design a little vacuum attachment with a small soft wire brush to get in and remove any dust and rust from the grooves. I believe the grooves will still be able to hold a coil, but I am afraid of element bulging. Might have to use pins? 16au element wire is what I saw in one video.  Preemptive pinning or wait for a bulge?

decided to use the concrete slab that was for a second a/c condenser. Its benefits outweigh the negative of being outside. I'll build a beautiful case for it when not in use to keep moisture out and the wife off my back.  I plan to smooth the few imperfections in the slab with a hand jackhammer w/ chisel blade. Picked up 8 cinder blocks to use as a platform base to raise the kiln off the slab.

Later this month I'll have more time to remove the rest of the coils and make an internal brace so i can tip it over onto its side...at least that's the planned timeline.

Ryan