Pres

I taught HS for 36 years, most years ceramics, computer animation, drawing and painting. I also learned more from teaching others about media than any college taught me. I still learn in the shop most days, as there are always a new problems to solve. I enjoy solving problems and meeting challenges. I still teach, as the forum is here, I have a blog that has some insights into ceramics, and I still mentor some teachers in our area and assist with an adult class at the HS where I used to work. I'm retired, just not done yet.
 
best,
Pres

I taught HS for 36 years, most years ceramics, computer animation, drawing and painting. I also learned more from teaching others about media than any college taught me. I still learn in the shop most days, as there are always a new problems to solve. I enjoy solving problems and meeting challenges. I still teach, as the forum is here, I have a blog that has some insights into ceramics, and I still mentor some teachers in our area and assist with an adult class at the HS where I used to work. I'm retired, just not done yet.
 
best,
Pres

I taught HS for 36 years, most years ceramics, computer animation, drawing and painting. I also learned more from teaching others about media than any college taught me. I still learn in the shop most days, as there are always a new problems to solve. I enjoy solving problems and meeting challenges. I still teach, as the forum is here, I have a blog that has some insights into ceramics, and I still mentor some teachers in our area and assist with an adult class at the HS where I used to work. I'm retired, just not done yet.
 
best,
Pres

that's the rub. There are plenty of people that have things they didn't particularly do much to be able to have it but a degree? Everyone I know that has a degree worked their a$$es off to get it and many have forever student loan payments to pay for at least some of it.  Just don't see how it has anything to do with elitism. Now most people are proud of the accomplishment and all have some college war stories but that's cronyism not elitism  

Done with this forum

Done with this forum

So the Hulk clarified his question about value by telling us : 
fwiw, my post to qotw has more t'do with "what is art" (and what is not art) than value of formal education; all good tho', carry on!
Th' topics weave together, surely.
So I will ask the QotW: How do you value or differentiate What is art and not art? I am assuming we are getting into the Art vs Craft discussion again, but then maybe there is more to it than just that. 
For me, there is that thing which is lower than craft, and this time of year we see a lot of it. I consider the glued together, tossed together stuff of decorative glitz used for the seasons, especially fall and winter. The combination of machine made, natural, natural covered with glitter, fake natural all pulled together with glue or wire to decorate. Hmmmm! Take a step up and consider the early stages of any craftsman, the learner that one day be considered a true craftsman of wood, metal, clay or whatever. Nice stuff, but still a layer at the bottom of CRAFT. I was there at one time, and all of us have to be. Then we start to evolve, not just making a form, but thinking about why me make the form, how to make it more efficiently, how to make it more useful, how to make it more decoartive or interesting. Through this thoughtful investigation we start to create true Craft objects, often very useful, aesthetically pleasing, and a joy to use. It brings a different dimension to those lives that use them. Then there are those that are still making functional objects, and have evolved in such an aesthetic, that their work is often considered Art. I give you Martha Glover as an example, where her organic wheel thrown porcelain forms with understated color are often described as art. There are others over the centuries that lift the simple functional object to art. Lastly we come to those rogues, those pioneers, or renegades that have lifted the world of functional ceramic into the realm of Art by their audacity and creativity. We would list many of the artist/craftspeople from the 60's and 70's, such as Voulkos, Autio, Callas, Paul Soldner, Takaezu, Mason, Price, and so many others that I dare not try to name them all. Too many. 
I do not presume to judge, as there are many pieces of work that I would not consider art myself, but they have cleared the way for a form of expression that has mirrored much of what was going on in the art world at the same time. They have also established clay as gallery art, something that before the 20th century was not as often considered in an Art museum. It is nice to be able to see ceramic pieces of all ilk displayed along with paintings, sculptures and other media.
 
Value. . . decide for yourself!
 
 
best,
Pres

Oh my, yappy, I would hardly call my attaining a degree something elitist. I was an USAF brat during the 50's and 60's. We lived in many different places, with many different school districts, with good and bad teachers. I had some health problems early on, and was never very large in size, and one to get bullied. Most times it was flight or fight. I chose flight as I was faster, and they were much bigger. I was smart, but stupid in school. I knew the answers, and was eager to answer, at the same time that would bring yourself to center at times and leave you open to more of the pre mentioned problem. Even though smart, I did not do a whole lot of homework, had average grades, and was one of the ones at the back or middle of the class. Even in art I did not excel, as I never really took the time to finish much, getting bored with the process.
This brings me to college years, where the only school I could get into was a community college. . .I wanted to major in Industrial Design, but ended up in a Math/Science track, as there was very little I could afford in the way of an Industrial Design school on the east coast. 2 years later found me with 19 credits of heavy courses, a night job at a supermarket, and tons of homework that buried me. I flunked out. Wrote the Dean a letter that Summer, groveling to get back in as I could not transfer anywhere with my GPA where it was. One year later, I transferred to a state college, with a 1.999 average. They took me on probation on account of three things. . . My board scores back in my senior year of HS were 1200's so I was not stupid, my accum for the last year at community college was 4.9, and when the head of the art department asked what happened and added. . . .did you get a girlfriend? Then asked is she here, I had to answer yes she started the semester before me. So yeah really prestigious beginning, not to mention that before starting the last year at community college I was in a major car accident that put me in the hospital for 2 weeks, and left me basically 4F physically wearing a back brace and chest constrictor for a few years.
No college for me was tough, until I got my head wrapped around it, and got to a place where I found I could succeed. Grades the last few years were well over 3.5, and in grad classes the same. Took me till late 80's to get a MS in Art Ed, but all worth it. Never majored in Ceramics, or any other form of art, but have more studio time than many in a wide variety of media. Much of which I taught in HS
 
humbly,
Pres
 

Klamath yellow from SPS, I love this stuff, fires a deep metallic brown, almost black in reduction.  I've been meaning to do some porcelain work but I'd have to give my whole studio a hose down first.

Heh, my house is full of the things I've made going all the way back to the first grade.  My kids won't eat out of a bowl unless it's hand made, they're real snobs.  I leave the bottom half of the outside of my bowls unglazed but with heavy texture so they are easy to grip and feel really good in the hand.  I guess I'm a snob because now that I've been eating out of this style of bowl I notice how awkward it is to hold a Corelle bowl.

We still use the dinnerware set that I threw twelve years ago,  it its getting a little scratchy looking.   I have been thinking about putting one of the plates in a glaze firing.  It might cure the haze on the plates  or make the puddle.   I will give it a try in my next firing.    Denice

No new one in the question bank, so I will post this question: Of the things that you make, do you use anything pottery wise, and what is your favorite piece to use?
I imagine, that many of us make things to use at home or elsewhere. I know that I use pots that I have made, and if they don't work well for me, put them aside for the next version. So in the household, we use large and small bowls, berry bowl/colanders, apple bakers, batter bowls, and mugs. We are more coffee drinkers, but do have and use some teapots, and I have gone through several of these until they are right. My wife likes the large bowls the most, then the next down is the berry bowl, that we use often.  Mugs come and go, but of late there have been some that are favorites that someone always reaches into the back for. We have a purchased handbuilt platter from GEP, that we use, but obviously I did not make it. 
 
best,
Pres

I think that what you get out of school is what you put into it. I know several people who came out of the same programs as me with little to show for it, and others who came out ready to take on the world. I found college and grad school to be a place of a million possibilities. It's where I learned to make pots, and where I learned a ton of technical knowledge that set me on the path toward a career in ceramics. In college and grad school I had far more clay and glaze materials available for testing than I could ever have in my private studio. I had kilns of every type available. I had the knowledge of dozens of other students who had come from other programs. There was no surrendering of free will, self-fulfillment, or creativity. In fact I would say there is far more creativity because a college program has far more resources and knowledge available, which allow you to work in directions you wouldn't be able to do on your own, or didn't even know existed. I had teachers that demanded and supported creativity and experimentation. If I didn't show up to the weekly critiques with something creative I was in trouble. In ceramics, and any art, lack of knowledge and technical skill are stifling. The more you know, the greater the possibilities. And all the non-art classes that I took? Those come in very handy too. Calculus, sociology, biology, writing, Spanish, music, economics, etc. They are all helpful to me as a business owner, husband, parent, and teacher. You can't live in an art bubble.
A college program also has a much faster learning curve, because there is a schedule that must be followed in order to get the grade. You either practice and learn the skill, or your grade suffers. An art center program doesn't have that kind of schedule, so the learning curve is much, much slower. Are you really 'wasting tons of cash and years of your life' if you get more skills in half the time? The whole purpose of an MFA program is to create a body of work that can then be produced and sold when you get out of school. I don't see how that is a waste of time or money.
It's not any cheaper to learn to make pots at an art center than at a college. Say you take a class at a local art center or studio and it costs $150 a month (which is a little low in many places), that's $1800 a year if you go all year. In that class, you're going to learn, at most, 1/2 of what you would in a decent college program (if even that). I know this because I teach community classes. When people only come into the studio once or twice a week,  it takes a lot longer to learn the skills, and the resources aren't there to provide a really comprehensive ceramics education. So if you do the math, you'd need to go 2 years, $3600, to get the equivalent education of one year of a college program. Add in the cost of clay, and in many studios also the cost of glazing and firing, and it's even more. And you probably don't get to load and fire the kilns, or mix glazes, or have formal critiques, or have the variety of kilns and raw materials available to you. Full time tuition at UW Whitewater for residents is $7,692. That's for 4 or more classes, so no more than $1923 a year per class.
Yes, there are some college art programs that are very expensive, but you don't have to go to those. I went to  state schools that were quite inexpensive at the time, and got a better education than my friends that went to the expensive schools. But I also worked really hard to make sure I got a good education. It wasn't just handed to me. I took advantage of all that was available to me and made sure I wasn't leaving anything out. I spent 40+ hours per week in the studio from day one, 70 hours a week in grad school. I helped our lab tech with all of his maintenance jobs. I learned how to fire every kiln. I built kilns. I ran thousands of glaze tests. Not all schools are the same, not all schools are good, and not all schools are a good fit for every person. You have to do your research and figure out what's best for you. I'm sorry if you've had a bad experience with formal education, but to say that all college is bad is inaccurate.
 
 

Uhh, no not flashing as I have been putting base glaze on with dip, then sprayed accents using different spray angles of cream rust and variegated blue with an overspray of rutile green.
Rae, I had just made the handle for an article, and decided not to waste, and as I needed cone packs. .. . it seemed natural. Second firing was perfect. I got lucky on the first.
 
best,
Pres

One thing of note-in my 45 year ceramic career my art BA has never come up-not in any sense-galleries -shows-etc.

Just for giggles , and the benefit of sometimes being lucky.
 


Cone pack from last firing where I misjudged the rate after installing a new element.
best,
Pres

Yappy, while I agree that those who are poor do not have an equal opportunity for higher education today, I think that not all folks that had the good fortune to earn a degree are bad because of their good fortune.  Rather it is the artists, gallery owners, sometimes collectors who only value the piece of paper and do not accept those who learn their craft through different channels .  This type of condescension reflects on their personal issues and their insecurities and not education.  
I was fortunate to attend college in the mid 70's with scholarships and grants (that would not begin to cover the costs these days).  To please my family, I took art classes but did not major.  My experience was a series of very condescending art teachers that belittled whatever we did.  I was never able to afford to go back to college again....needed to keep the roof over head and eat.   But I still had the fire....even without the degree...worked with textiles.  Never gave up thinking about art as a career.
Fast forward to 2001...I moved to Winston-Salem, NC....they have a community art school, Sawtooth...they teach ceramics.  I was able to take some classes to learn basic techniques, asks questions, pursue some of my own ideas...and ask more questions.  Everyone I worked with was willing to help anyone move along on their artistic journey.  So I would call this art education invaluable.  Informal only if that means no degrees offered but the education is key to my basic understanding of the craft.   Now it is up to me the learn the nuances...find my voice....listen to other potters ...and not worry about the piece of paper.  
 
 
 

Go ahead and send them my way when they're finished.  I'd post a picture of the mess, but I'm afraid it would cause some of the more organized folks here an aneurysm.

I think that painting everyone with the same brush is inherently inaccurate.  I submit there are many people who do not justify their good fortune in earning a degree by assuming negative things about others who did not/were not able to go the same route.  Just because  someone is educated and has a degree, that does not automatically tell anybody anything about their life, their values, their struggles, their pain (or joy), their economic status (good or bad) or their politics/philosophy/world view. 
 I always wanted to study art and the creative process as expressed in this and other cultures, now and in history. The value of formal education in developing my skills in ceramics is worth 1000xs the price, for many reasons, and it is still paying off to this day.  As someone who earned a BFA from an esteemed art school, while on welfare and struggling mightily as a single parent with a toddler in tow, and 20 years older than the other students, in deep poverty, at times homeless, with many other crippling hardships, plus the add-on of student loans, I must assert how  enriching, valuable, freeing, and supportive of my creative expression and drive, and my very survival, the experience was.
What I got was a sterling education from the best faculty of knowledgible, competant, and skilled artists/instructors one could ever want. I have carried and used the benefits of that excellent education throughout all aspects of my life, not just in art interactions, but in ctitical thinking, world-view, career, understanding people and cultures, and many other areas of functioning. My formal training was invaluable and has enhanced my creative expression and appreciation of crafts & art. It took nothing away from my innate creative drive, my ideas, my self-concept/identity, or my preferences for working with my materials. When someone is being derisive and dismissive of that "piece of paper" Old Lady's line comes to mind:  "putting you down does not raise me up." Or rather, putting me down does not raise you up.

Formal education is  a key element in the whole process. I was raised in a art friendy home by educators. I was exposed to ceramics in 5th grade and again in high school. It took hold of part of me and I do not know why. I went on and got an art degree in collage over a 5 year process. I happened to learn from recent graduates from the golden age of Alfred graduates who got their 1st teaching jobs. They learned from the greats-like Rhodes etc. I was at the right place right time. Also one could find materials on the cheap and build kilns and obtain permits may back then. Thats all changed now.
Back in school I fired gas and electrics worked as a tech and fired kilns for work study money-built kilns-made bricks learned clay and glaze formulation
did low fire and high fire and raku and pit firing-made sculpture and made functional wares. Only in school is one exposed to it all and to get all the knowledge one needs to see it all.U-tube cannot hold a candle too this experience.
School was the beginning of my learning experience -Really just a jump off point looking back. Its the foundation of my career but the real learning was in the real world of business and the sheer number of years it takes to get good and succeed .Throwing really well takes everyone different amounts of time to master-for me it was about 7 or eight years to get handles and forms perfected and have then sell well.
I'm a big believer in formal education-our society improves with formal education.
The only downside these days is ceramic education has been slashed nation wide and there has been at least a twenty year bias towards sculpt vs functional wares in many collage programs. You can now get a degree in what I call (jar opening) where you learn very little except low fire sculpture making.Finding a good school these days is work.

My ceramics education was not formal. It consisted of informal recreational classes, plus some excellent workshops, lots of reading, plus the most important element which is years and years of hands-on experience and practice. It can be done, but it certainly takes a lot longer than 4 years. And you need to put together your own "curriculum" so to speak, and research where to get the training you want. Even advanced topics like kiln-building and fuel firing can be learned this way, if you search for it. On the plus side, it's a lot cheaper than college tuition. You can also be working full-time while you do it. 
I recently gave a throwing demo at a local community college. The classroom and facilities were beautiful! I was a little envious, and wished I could have learned in a setting like that. But at the same time, Mark mentioned this above too, if you get a college ceramics education, you are still short of the years and years of hands-on experience and practice that it takes to realize your goals. So condensing all the education into 4 years doesn't get you there any faster. 
I have a college degree in design, and I would not trade that educational experience for anything. It transformed me from a talented but naive/immature high-schooler into an adult who could navigate the professional world. This is not something you can teach yourself. It takes role models and a lot of guidance. 

When I taught adult classes, 9-12, we would have about and hour of class time then studio for 2. Class time was active demonstrations on my part from how to assemble clean 90 degree slab corners to using a slab roller or an extruder. Vocabulary always included, along with the correct name for tools, processes, and materials. Loading the kiln was a demonstration and at time a group project along with critiques at unload.
 
best,
Pres

The Hulk recently ascertained in the QotW pool. . . 
We read John Barth's short story "Lost in the Funhouse" in undergrad English (literature concentration); when/if one has seen and understood how the funhouse works, one can't very well go back to and have the first time through experience again. The concept might go somewhar near "knowledge is suffering" - suffer to get it, suffer because of it, and then suffer some more. Is it worth it? Uuuhm, o'course't!!
Whal, writing as art or not art might be easier to agree on that ceramic work ...or is it?
Any road, formal education/training (that isn't crap) is worth it, imo, howeber, you gonna suffer, an' one can't go back neither.
 
I'm assuming, rightly or wrongly that he is considering the value of formal education in the process of dealing with Ceramic?  So I will ask, in paraphrase: Did you have formal education dealing with your introduction and growth in Ceramics? If so how do you value this formal education? If not, do you miss the opportunity to get formal education?
 
Whooooo. . .As a teacher, it is logical that I support the value of Education. I do, with some reservations. . I don't know as I really have had need of Calculus, Advanced inorganic Chemistry, or Quantitative Analysis, but when it comes to Art, I found that the things I missed most from my High School years was mostly about Art, and the Arts. My introduction to Ceramics came in my third year of college, and I was blown away! Literally, to know that there was this wheel and the feel of the clay and OMG I just had to learn all about it, and it has been a journey, through undergrad and grad school. However, if to go back and do it all over again, I would have been more organized about it. I took classes Ceramics, did not enter a Ceramics program. Big difference. However, I am a good self learner, and over the years have read well, learned and taught. . . all of this leading to my understanding of Ceramics I have today. Not perfect, but works for me, so in the long run, no regrets. Suffering, no, something that brings me so much joy could never make me suffer. . .as when kicked by a bad load, or flopping pot, I get up and start over again.
 
best,
Pres

Times were very different when I was in college back in the 1970’s the whole getting sued thing wasn’t so out of control. I lived very near my local community college and the ceramics professor gave me a key to the studio so I could help fire the kilns, two big old alpines. 

There are many people who worry that learning common ways of doing things, or other people's ways of doing things, will keep them from discovering uncommon ways of doing things or a unique personal style. 
These are often the same people who believe that small children have better judgment and instincts than people who have been exposed to a range of other people's ideas.
I don't think there is any evidence that exposure to a range of ideas or techniques is stifling. More likely it is stimulating.
There are others who loathe formal education because they were either bored or humiliated by the particular education they received and generalize that to all formal education.
I have also encountered people who are convinced that formally educated people are less disposed to becoming life-long learners than people without formal education. I don't think there is any validity to this assumption.
The question of how much it is reasonable to go into debt or how much time it is reasonable to devote is entirely legitimate. There will also be people who have an exceptional alternative resource available to them that is uncommon, someone who is willing to devote all the time it takes to teach them privately. Most people will not have this option. 
I have taken two ceramics classes. One was an open studio sort of thing with lots of studio access but little instruction. The other involved formal instruction but no access other than during class time to practice space or equipment.
I learned much more from the second than from the first, but these experiences made me wish I had had an opportunity to take a class from a teacher over the course of a three or four month term in which I also had access to the studio to practice. At this point I am unlikely to be able to do that.