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sparklingmango

Please Help, I Don't Know Whats Best To Buy!

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Hello all!

I am new to this forum and working with ceramics. 

 

I am a BA Egyptology student who is making Egyptian Faience for a project. 

 

Yesterday I purchased a EFCO 110 kiln. My issue is is that it cannot be operated without a temp controller and thermocouple.

 

Would this be suitable?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111052555116?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT(It is a 2 in 1 I suppose) 

 

I cannot really afford anything pricey really, so this is my best bet hopefully. Otherwise I am screwed... 

How would I wire this up? Any tips, my boyfriend is pretty good with this sort of stuff so he is giving me a hand with that. And from what I know so far it looks pretty straight forward. 

Any tips or advice would be awesome thank you :-) 

post-66411-0-42082400-1425130240_thumb.jpg

post-66411-0-42082400-1425130240_thumb.jpg

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Hi handy isn't necessarily enough. The person selling the pid (the controller) will be able to help probably - but contact before buying . The controller has to be specifically matched to the kiln according to amperage etc.

You might be able to operate your kiln without a controller. You would have to post the specifications . The people who are on this forum are gurus, they probably will be able to help.

Sounds like fun ! I would love to see the process as you work out what you are doing, have a good time doing it . Jolie

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The thermocouple will only go to 757 deg F and the relay is only pilot duty so you have to have another relay controlled by this pilot duty relay.  You need to find the amperage of the kiln first. Most ceramic stores will have a type K thermocouple that will work for you.

David

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Are you saying that you need a digital controller in order to do what you're doing, or that the kiln has no controls on it at all?

it says in my specifications that I cannot use it without a temperature control device. 

 

Hi handy isn't necessarily enough. The person selling the pid (the controller) will be able to help probably - but contact before buying . The controller has to be specifically matched to the kiln according to amperage etc.

You might be able to operate your kiln without a controller. You would have to post the specifications . The people who are on this forum are gurus, they probably will be able to help.

Sounds like fun ! I would love to see the process as you work out what you are doing, have a good time doing it . Jolie

Yes, I contacted them and they have now sent me another one to look at. But I am waiting for a second reply as I have sent my specs. 

 

The thermocouple will only go to 757 deg F and the relay is only pilot duty so you have to have another relay controlled by this pilot duty relay.  You need to find the amperage of the kiln first. Most ceramic stores will have a type K thermocouple that will work for you.

David

 

here are my specs. 

 

Vol of firing champer 1,1 l

max temp 1000 oc

voltage 230v~, 900 W, 6 A

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I have only had a quick read of info but I would think they want temperature control so you don't leave it on and burn out the kiln by going over max temp. Could be wrong but I would think you could still turn it on and fire. If you don't need a temperature ramp but only need to read the top temperature you can get thermocouples with a multi-meter type reader on the end. I am not sure where you put the thermocouple in? Is there any hole in the kiln?

 

I did find this blog http://paste.blogspot.co.uk/ don't know how much use that is to you but it seems related to what you are doing.

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I have only had a quick read of info but I would think they want temperature control so you don't leave it on and burn out the kiln by going over max temp. Could be wrong but I would think you could still turn it on and fire. If you don't need a temperature ramp but only need to read the top temperature you can get thermocouples with a multi-meter type reader on the end. I am not sure where you put the thermocouple in? Is there any hole in the kiln?

 

I did find this blog http://paste.blogspot.co.uk/ don't know how much use that is to you but it seems related to what you are doing.

Yup there is like a hole in teh back for the thermocouple. 

 

Yeah, pretty much. It says that in the instructions that came with it. 

Do you know where I can find these thermocouples with a multi-meter type reader? 

 

I am totally new to this btw. 

 

Cool thanks. 

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These are the kind of things I looked at a while back for my little test kiln. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-Thermometer-2-K-Type-Temperature-Thermocouple-Sensor-Probe-/111190250576?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item19e3749450

 

My test kiln can only be on or off, no relays or anything. Never got round to buying one so I cannot testify to how good these things are. When I used to fire it I would leave it on for 6.5 hours and that would be my firing. That was up to cone 9/8 which is meant to be around 1260 degreesC. I don't know if it shot over that temperature all I know is that it got to cone 8/9.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrometric_cone - what a cone is.

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These are the kind of things I looked at a while back for my little test kiln. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-Thermometer-2-K-Type-Temperature-Thermocouple-Sensor-Probe-/111190250576?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item19e3749450

 

My test kiln can only be on or off, no relays or anything. Never got round to buying one so I cannot testify to how good these things are. When I used to fire it I would leave it on for 6.5 hours and that would be my firing. That was up to 1260 degreeC though. 

I see. 

 

I know exactly how to make my Egyptian faience paste, and it needs to be fired at 900 degrees and down to 100 ever hour as a cool down for a total of 9 hours. The link you sent me is just people making glazes I think. 

 

The link you sent would not be suitable, its a 24 V and my kiln is 240 V. So its not suitable, I think thats right? Again I'm an Egyptologist so I'm not sure about these things really. 

 

But thanks for your help :-)

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If all you want to do is read temperature, go to Bigceramicstore.com  The only way you can turn it off is by tripping a circuit breaker as it looks like this is 220 volts, if it is 120 volts than pull the plug.  Also the max temp for 120 vac is 1742 deg F, is this enough for your tests?

David

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If all you want to do is read temperature, go to Bigceramicstore.com  The only way you can turn it off is by tripping a circuit breaker as it looks like this is 220 volts, if it is 120 volts than pull the plug.  Also the max temp for 120 vac is 1742 deg F, is this enough for your tests?

David

It says on my instructions that it cannot work without one. It has no switch, literally like you said you just pull it out to turn it off. I need to get an DC TO AC anyway for the plug. Yes I think so, I just need 900 degrees for 9 hours. And for my mould 1000 degrees or around that. 

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Actually the one I sent you seems to only go up to 250 degC so that probably wouldn't be great  :P here is a better one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dual-Two-Channel-2-K-Type-Digital-Thermometer-Thermocouple-Sensor-1300-C-2372-F/201237974691?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D29318%26meid%3D81d3fc5a5ec740b295b7828f788f51f7%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D10%26mehot%3Dlo%26sd%3D111190250576

 

The 24v is nothing to do with what voltage the kiln is running on. The thing runs on a 9v battery. You would just add the battery and put the probe in the kiln to read the temp.

 

What do you mean you need a dc to ac for the plug? Isn't the 240v coming though the plug AC? Where in the UK?

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Actually the one I sent you seems to only go up to 250 degC so that probably wouldn't be great  :P here is a better one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dual-Two-Channel-2-K-Type-Digital-Thermometer-Thermocouple-Sensor-1300-C-2372-F/201237974691?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D29318%26meid%3D81d3fc5a5ec740b295b7828f788f51f7%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D10%26mehot%3Dlo%26sd%3D111190250576

 

The 24v is nothing to do with what voltage the kiln is running on. The thing runs on a 9v battery. You would just add the battery and put the probe in the kiln to read the temp.

 

What do you mean you need a dc to ac for the plug? Isn't the 240v coming though the plug AC?

That's interesting. 

 

Is there any way you could change it then? because obviously the max temp for my kiln is around 1000-1100, (it says it different on everywhere i read haha) anyway, so if I needed it for 900 degrees, would I simply keep unplugging it and plugging it to reach the 900 and then the cool down to 100 for 9 hours? 

 

My boyfriend seems to think I need this. I live in the UK, and because its DC that comes out of the wall I need it to be AC. If I do get the thing you sent on your last post I will not need a relay BUT if I do get the temperature controller I will then need an DC/AC thing. 

 

This is all so confusing :-|

 

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That other link seems to say it can read temperatures up to 1300 degC if that's what you mean by changing it. My only worry would be the wire melting as it doesn't seem to have much insulating it. 

 

You can also buy these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HP-1300-LCD-16-1-Non-contact-Infrared-IR-Thermometer-Laser-Temp-Gun-Sensor-Test-/391047274909?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item5b0c3be19d

 

These are the cheaper ideas. You can buy better things but they will be £200+ on the EFCO 110 kiln website they sell some things that can be used with the kiln.

 

The only problem with turning it on and leaving it there till 900degC would be that the temperature rise could be too quick and could crack the Faience as the water is trying to escape. I have never used this stuff before so I don't know if it could handle the quick temperature increase.

 

The power coming out the wall is AC power. That is why phones and other items have transformers on the plugs to convert the power and rectify it to DC.

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That other link seems to say it can read temperatures up to 1300 degC if that's what you mean by changing it. My only worry would be the wire melting as it doesn't seem to have much insulating it. 

 

You can also buy these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HP-1300-LCD-16-1-Non-contact-Infrared-IR-Thermometer-Laser-Temp-Gun-Sensor-Test-/391047274909?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item5b0c3be19d

 

These are the cheaper ideas. You can buy better things but they will be £200+ on the EFCO 110 kiln website they sell some things that can be used with the kiln.

 

The only problem with turning it on and leaving it there till 900degC would be that the temperature rise could be too quick and could crack the Faience as the water is trying to escape. I have never used this stuff before so I don't know if it could handle the quick temperature increase.

 

The power coming out the wall is AC power. That is why phones and other items have transformers on the plugs to convert the power and rectify it to DC.

Yeah I can't really afford that unfortunately! 

 

I think I am going to get this. http://www.thermomart.com/Electronic-Paragon-Kiln-parts-temperature-instrument/PID-Temperature-Controller-Oven-DTA

 

it seems like it could be the best of all worlds!

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I would try and find somewhere in the UK that sells it. Probably a very similar thing on ebay from a UK supplier, will probably work out cheaper that way as you can skip customs charge and delivery from 'merica.

 

I would be interested in hearing how it goes as I still need a controller for my little kiln and they look interesting. It is a lot of overkill for the size of your kiln but if you can get it wired in it should work. That will probably be the hardest part, getting it wired up right.

 

I can't see anywhere saying how programmable it is. Can you choose a set time to get to a set temperature? If you can't really program in a set time to get to a set temperature then the relay is a bit useless. Maybe I am being rubbish at reading.

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I would try and find somewhere in the UK that sells it. Probably a very similar thing on ebay from a UK supplier, will probably work out cheaper that way as you can skip customs charge and delivery from 'merica.

 

I would be interested in hearing how it goes as I still need a controller for my little kiln and they look interesting. It is a lot of overkill for the size of your kiln but if you can get it wired in it should work. That will probably be the hardest part, getting it wired up right.

 

I can't see anywhere saying how programmable it is. Can you choose a set time to get to a set temperature? If you can't really program in a set time to get to a set temperature then the relay is a bit useless. Maybe I am being rubbish at reading.

Yeah I shall try but It's very unlikely all the ones in the UK are like £200+ which is ridiculous for what it actually is! I think it's best to go for the timer though, like I said, I am new to ceramics and I wouldn't want to mess up my beautiful faience pastes :P

 

Defiantly, I will post on here as soon as I've found something, let you know how it goes :P Thanks for all the help :-D

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I would try and find somewhere in the UK that sells it. Probably a very similar thing on ebay from a UK supplier, will probably work out cheaper that way as you can skip customs charge and delivery from 'merica.

 

I would be interested in hearing how it goes as I still need a controller for my little kiln and they look interesting. It is a lot of overkill for the size of your kiln but if you can get it wired in it should work. That will probably be the hardest part, getting it wired up right.

 

I can't see anywhere saying how programmable it is. Can you choose a set time to get to a set temperature? If you can't really program in a set time to get to a set temperature then the relay is a bit useless. Maybe I am being rubbish at reading.

Yeah I shall try but It's very unlikely all the ones in the UK are like £200+ which is ridiculous for what it actually is! I think it's best to go for the timer though, like I said, I am new to ceramics and I wouldn't want to mess up my beautiful faience pastes :P

 

Defiantly, I will post on here as soon as I've found something, let you know how it goes :P Thanks for all the help :-D

 

oh and i've found a video how to programme it in the kiln, its pretty straight forward you just put it in earth and then come back around, i know people who can do this for me you see

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I would try and find somewhere in the UK that sells it. Probably a very similar thing on ebay from a UK supplier, will probably work out cheaper that way as you can skip customs charge and delivery from 'merica.

 

I would be interested in hearing how it goes as I still need a controller for my little kiln and they look interesting. It is a lot of overkill for the size of your kiln but if you can get it wired in it should work. That will probably be the hardest part, getting it wired up right.

 

I can't see anywhere saying how programmable it is. Can you choose a set time to get to a set temperature? If you can't really program in a set time to get to a set temperature then the relay is a bit useless. Maybe I am being rubbish at reading.

 

 

If all you want to do is read temperature, go to Bigceramicstore.com  The only way you can turn it off is by tripping a circuit breaker as it looks like this is 220 volts, if it is 120 volts than pull the plug.  Also the max temp for 120 vac is 1742 deg F, is this enough for your tests?

David

dudes I found this http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00HVA23CK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3UXTXY26MYLSA 

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The sensor itself needs to be high temperature,  The one that comes with the controller will not be adequate for the temp you will be working at.  The controller itself will probably be adequate.  The best way to go. is get a controller from the kiln manufacturer and tell them what you intend to use it for, power source etc.

David

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Hi there.  I recently made myself a PID controller for my older Reward kiln so I've been through this exercise recently.  In order to accomplish your cooling goals (100^/Hr) and give you some control over the heating rate, you need a ramp/soak or ramp/hold PID controller.  The controllers you are looking at will reach the specified temperature as fast or slowly as the kiln is able.  If your kiln can heat to 1000^ in 1/2 hour, it will.  As for cooling, the controllers you are looking at will not do anything for controlled cooling.  You need to be able to program a temperature AND time into the device.  This is where the ramp/hold functionality comes into play.  Depending in input parameters, the controller will apply necessary power to the kiln in order to cool it slowly (or quickly, it's your decision) and evenly.

 

After a bit of research, I settled on a SYL-2352P from Auber Instruments, a decent thermocouple (8 awg TC with ceramic insulators), SSR and heatsink, and a non-conductive box to put it all in for a little over $100.  The wiring of these is fairly straightforward, but the programming is not "intuitive."  The manual I downloaded covered programming adequately enough that I was able to understand and program the device.

 

Your other option is to buy a high temperature thermocouple/pyrometer and babysit the kiln by manually applying and disconnecting power for the length of the firing.  

 

I hope some of this was helpful and if you have any more questions I'll be happy to share what I've learned.

 

Rob

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I also ordered an Auber controller recently, although I got the SYL-2342P instead. It's basically the same as the version Rob mentioned, except that the output is to control a  relay instead of an SSR. It'll take a while to get here, so I can't give a recommendation yet, but with this version you'll be able to connect your kiln directly to the controller, rather than having to get an SSR that the controller switches on and off.

The ramp/soak ones seem to be more complicated to program than the ones that just keep the temperature constant, but these notes I found may make things easier.

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I also ordered an Auber controller recently, although I got the SYL-2342P instead. It's basically the same as the version Rob mentioned, except that the output is to control a  relay instead of an SSR. It'll take a while to get here, so I can't give a recommendation yet, but with this version you'll be able to connect your kiln directly to the controller, rather than having to get an SSR that the controller switches on and off.

 

The ramp/soak ones seem to be more complicated to program than the ones that just keep the temperature constant, but these notes I found may make things easier.

Thanks for the message. 

 

Ok, this looks interesting. I understand it is a built in relay, a thermocouple, a temp control and a ramp/soaker? Would this be suitable for my kiln EFCO 110 do you know? I need to achieve a temperature of 900 degrees for 9 hours with a cool down of 100 degrees every hour? Would I be able to do it with the link you sent? This price seems good. I don't have a lot of money to invest in this so ideally I am looking for something that is £100 less. I have been in contact with someone on eBay who is selling all of this and she has suggested I by a ramp/soaker as well. But this is $200. 

 

 

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Are you sure you need a nine hour controlled cool? Is that specific to the recipe for faience you are using? Out of curiosity, I checked to see if others had info on cooling and found no references to firing cycles. But I did find a couple links you might find interesting:

 

https://egyptmanchester.wordpress.com/2012/05/27/curators-diary-26512-making-ancient-egyptian-faience/

 

http://www.amywallerpottery.com/faience

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