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Dang!&*&$#--Having Touble Getting Elements To Lay In Groove!

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#1 hershey8

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 12:32 PM

I thought my diy elements would simply lay in the groove and behave. Dream on! I guess I'll have to pin them in place. Well Skutt does it, so why not. The original elements in my Paragon snf24 didn't have pins when I removed them. I don't feel great about having them now. But it is what it is; it's never what it ain't! Ok to use element wire of same gauge to make pins or, in this case, staples? Huh? Huh?  Are there any rules regarding pinning or stapling? I like the staple idea, 'cause two legs seem better than one.    ja



#2 Pres

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 12:53 PM

The big reason I like to use L&L kilns. John, is the element stretched to proper length? If it is not the correct length for the ring it will not stay in the groove even if it is an L&L! :rolleyes:


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#3 Mark C.

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 02:20 PM

Skutt uses pins at the corners-there is an art to this lay it out dry and match the corners.I think it sounds like you need some pins.

Mark


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#4 TJR

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 04:51 PM

You can stretch your element slightly by heating it up with a propane torch.

Fun!

TJR.



#5 Pres

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 06:28 PM

I used to mark the measurement on the floor, and gently pull with someone at the other end until it matched the measurement.


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#6 hershey8

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 08:06 PM

The big reason I like to use L&L kilns. John, is the element stretched to proper length? If it is not the correct length for the ring it will not stay in the groove even if it is an L&L! :rolleyes:

Pretty close, but not close enough. It's a really deep groove that practically swallows the element. Depth of groove and size and position of lip (for lack of  better word) make it hard to push in a pin at a 45 degree angle. 90  degrees will lock the element down but will probably vibrate out in time. I may have to knock down the lip on the firebrick where I use pins. My biggest problem is getting element to seat into the valley of the groove. Does that make sense? It's like a one of those crazy ring puzzles. Once you learn the trick, the rest is a piece of cake. I have 12 elements. Conquer #1 and I guess the rest will fall in place. Thanks, john



#7 hershey8

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 08:14 PM

Thanks ya'll. I'll keep working on it. I may have to nibble a bit on the firebrick to get the pins to go in at an angle. Maybe some bent-nosed needle nose pliers will do it. I hate to put the pins straight in. AHHHH just had an idea. I may be able to dremel off some 45 degree places on the back side of the lip that's causing the problem. I have an old Jenkins kiln that I hauled off for someone. The element channels ARE beveled at a 45 possibly so pins can be inserted that way. hmmmm               ja



#8 Arnold Howard

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 04:14 PM

Thanks ya'll. I'll keep working on it. I may have to nibble a bit on the firebrick to get the pins to go in at an angle. Maybe some bent-nosed needle nose pliers will do it. I hate to put the pins straight in. AHHHH just had an idea. I may be able to dremel off some 45 degree places on the back side of the lip that's causing the problem. I have an old Jenkins kiln that I hauled off for someone. The element channels ARE beveled at a 45 possibly so pins can be inserted that way. hmmmm               ja

The SnF-24 should not need element pins. If it were my kiln, I would not alter the brick grooves to make room for the pins. Push the element all the way to the back of the groove where the firebricks meet, the element should lie flat in the grooves when you fire the kiln.

 

The video link shows an employee installing an element at the factory. (It is near the 3 minute mark.) Notice that he pushes the element into the groove and maintains a constant pressure against the element. If you let go of the element half way through the installation, the element will not stay in the groove later.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

Arnold Howard

Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA

ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com



#9 Pres

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 04:42 PM

I was hoping you would come in on this Arnold. Thanks.


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#10 hershey8

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 09:36 PM

 

Thanks ya'll. I'll keep working on it. I may have to nibble a bit on the firebrick to get the pins to go in at an angle. Maybe some bent-nosed needle nose pliers will do it. I hate to put the pins straight in. AHHHH just had an idea. I may be able to dremel off some 45 degree places on the back side of the lip that's causing the problem. I have an old Jenkins kiln that I hauled off for someone. The element channels ARE beveled at a 45 possibly so pins can be inserted that way. hmmmm               ja

The SnF-24 should not need element pins. If it were my kiln, I would not alter the brick grooves to make room for the pins. Push the element all the way to the back of the groove where the firebricks meet, the element should lie flat in the grooves when you fire the kiln.

 

The video link shows an employee installing an element at the factory. (It is near the 3 minute mark.) Notice that he pushes the element into the groove and maintains a constant pressure against the element. If you let go of the element half way through the installation, the element will not stay in the groove later.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

Arnold Howard

Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA

ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com

 

Arnold, thanks for sharing this great video. I think I may have come across it on you tube, but was probably experiencing audio problems at the time. Very helpful! So if I can get element to seat in the bottom part of the groove, no pinning is necessary. I am reworking my original jig to insure that elements are flat and bent to conform to the polygon. If they fit the jig, they should fit the kiln. Thanks again for the information/video. Big help!



#11 hershey8

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 11:23 PM

The biggest problem is that the "groove"  is a compound groove. I can lay element into the groove and it stays but will not seat into the lower part of the groove. Any stretching or compressing element with piers seems to put enough distortion in the element to make it not lay down low in the groove. I'm pretty close to getting it now, but may still have to used several pins as the elements are not all behind the lip of the groove. I think it's going to work, for a while anyway. I've got to hand it to the folks at Paragon. They just zip that element right in with no problem. Very pretty. Great video. Thanks again Arnold. Thanks to all.    john autry



#12 Mark C.

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 12:37 AM

The key is constant pressure on the element  as it goes in as seen in that vid.


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#13 hershey8

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:12 AM

The key is constant pressure on the element  as it goes in as seen in that vid.

Constant pressure, and it helps if the element is dead-on in length. I've been having to make slight changes to my length, and that deforms element enough to make it a little wavy. Maybe they'll settle down when they get hot. We'll see. I just need to take some classes in kiln building/repair. I can pin the suckers in a few places if I have to.  ALSO, I think it something happens while bending the pigtail to 90 degrees. If that's not done perfectly, it seems to stress the element in places , which keeps it from laying flat. I"M in the groove, just not laying down below the lip of the groove.  ja



#14 Babs

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 08:08 PM

Just remember Hershey, the thing about experts is that they make the thing they are expert at look a breeze!  lay as many elements as the guy in the video and you'd look like you're enjoying the process..



#15 hershey8

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 09:57 AM

Just remember Hershey, the thing about experts is that they make the thing they are expert at look a breeze!  lay as many elements as the guy in the video and you'd look like you're enjoying the process..

I think I've got it figured out now Bab's, simply wasn't holding my mouth right.  john a.



#16 ayjay

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 12:03 PM

 

I think I've got it figured out now Bab's, simply wasn't holding my mouth right.  john a.

 

I think I know the look you needed. :lol:

 

concentrating_zps26fd823e.jpg



#17 hershey8

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 04:48 PM

 

 

I think I've got it figured out now Bab's, simply wasn't holding my mouth right.  john a.

 

I think I know the look you needed. :lol:

 

concentrating_zps26fd823e.jpg

 

Yep! That's the one. I wish I'd had known before I started. j



#18 Mark C.

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 10:52 PM

Now that I read you have non store bought elements it all makes sense that you are having issues-my guess its a diameter of element problem.

These generally do not lay down better later.

Mark


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#19 Babs

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 12:42 AM

Just pin the little mothers but don't destroy your bricks.



#20 Arnold Howard

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 07:52 AM

We're going to hold a kiln maintenance seminar at Paragon on October 24 - 25, 2014.

 

Sincerely,

 

Arnold Howard

Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA

ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com







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