For New Folks, Red Is Not Santa Suit Red, Usually

[oldlady]

for you new people who think that red is the color of santa's suit you should understand that when many experienced potters talk about a red glaze they are talking about a rust color obtained from iron in the glaze recipe. it all depends on your frame of reference.  

 

if you are purchasing little bottles from a manufacturer of underglaze or glaze you have a color chart from them that shows a real, santa suit red.  as you move into making your own glazes, know that the color in those commercial glazes comes from an ingredient that is dangerous for the average studio potter to use. cadmium is a carcinogen so it is not generally found in home studios.  bottled red glaze should not be used on surfaces that will come in contact with food.  if you want to paint little red flowers on the outside of your vases or flowerpots, go ahead, just not on a plate. 

 

potters who fire fuel burning kilns can get wonderful colors and flashing of golden highlights in their iron rich glazes.  these effects are generally not available to those of us firing electric, lower temperature kilns.  people like those effects and think they are "colors" and want to buy a jar of that "color".  some manufacturers recognized this and have developed glazes that give some of these effects by layering glazes on top of each other.  so you buy 2 or 3 jars of something that looks great on their samples but you cannot get the same results even though you try everything you can think of. (probably ruining several shelves in the meanwhile).

 

all of this is just by way of introducing the idea that as beginners it is your responsibility to educate yourself.  asking a question here is helpful to solve a single problem but it does not end your search for knowledge.  if nothing else, get a fundamental book that has a thing called a glossary in the back.  learn the terminology and explore the subject as thoroughly as you can.  start at the beginning of a general text and READ it from cover to cover.  do not skip around looking at pictures until you read the text.

 

all this because i visited a small teaching studio while several beginners were trying to figure out how to achieve something one of them saw and wanted to duplicate.  remember that ice dancing in the Olympics looks beautiful but would you expect to do that your first time out on ice?

 

the first color is Spectrum Christmas red out of a bottle, the second is Don's crimson (not the original name, not candy apple red) and the third is from Jane Cullum who calls it Chinese Red.

[Juli Long]

Wow! That was arrogant! Love your quote at the end,"putting you down does not raise me up". Next time you might wait until some "new people" ask

for your opinion before slamming them.

 

regards,

juli

[OffCenter]

potters who fire fuel burning kilns can get wonderful colors and flashing of golden highlights in their iron rich glazes.  these effects are generally not available to those of us firing electric...

 

Dead wrong, there Oldlady! I've fired all kinds of "fuel burning" kilns and worked with iron saturate glazes extensively in cone 10 reduction firings but never even came close to the rich, deep, micro-crystalized glazes I get at cone 6 in an electric kiln. If you want to see some of the nicest iron saturate reds around take a look at Steven Hill's work. He spent 30 or whatever years firing cone 10 reduction and on a dime switched to cone 6 oxidation.

 

Jim

[Claypple]

Oldlady, what made you post this bitter-out-of-frustration post anyway?

Looks like out of nowhere. 

[trina]

1. Some of you non Canadians might not know this but when I put on skates for the first time I was Bobby Or

 

2. at least those guys in the small studio were figure'n

 

i have seen worse

 

T

[oldlady]

information and facts are not opinions.

red is not red if it is iron red and you expected santa suit red.

small bottles are expensive and carefully formulated and some ingredients are carcinogens.

layering glazes sometimes results in too thick an application and glaze runs onto shelves.

discussions among students without an instructor's input can result in mistakes from inexperience.

"generally not available" does not mean impossible and i would certainly not include you in a post to beginners, jim.

yes, those guys were figure'n while their instructor was busy grinding excess glaze off 3 shelves with 4 6inch circles of glaze an inch high.

 

 

defining red was my only intent.  tell me who i "slammed" by that definition.

[Claypple]

Another fact (not an opinion): It is too hot outside today. 

[Pompots]

"bottled red glaze should not be used on surfaces that will come in contact with food"

 

To this quote, I would like to add that If you use a food safe clear glaze over your red or any other undergalze the piece will be food safe. So if someone wants to make  Santas Suite red color plates, go ahead.......it is food safe.

 

Oldlady, If you really want to help the new guys with Information and your facts you should give the complete Information and facts.

[Claypple]

Stroke and Coat has: "Ruby Slippers", Candy apple red", Cinnamon Stix", "Hot Tamale" (- the latter is redder than red!). All of them are Santa/scarlert/blood/tomatoe red.    ALL of them ARE FOOD SAFE. 

Coyote's "Red MBG019" is slightly on a cranberry side red, but still looks red for me and food safe as well.

There are actually more commercial glazes of other colors that are not food safe. (Usually blue)

Ironically, Coyote has "Iron Matt" that is not recommended for food use.

[trina]

Did I mention Bobby Or?

[OffCenter]

Did I mention Bobby Or?

 

Yes, you did.

[Chris Campbell]

Not to get too frisky here but it is spelled Orr .... you should know that if you intend to do crossword puzzles while you wait for a kiln to cool ... he is always the three letter word for hockey player.

Also, those guys skated on what we call "Chicken Ice" ... means there were no rocks, sticks, boards, cracks, ripples or other impediments in the ice ... so that is why they could skate so fast in straight lines.

 

Great quote today in the newspaper that I am gonna steal, edit a bit and call mine .....

"The plural of anecdote is not data."

[OffCenter]

Unfortunately, Oldlady, you massacred the facts. As Claypple points out there are plenty of red glazes, even reds brighter than Santa Claus's coat, that are safe for dishes.

 

Not including me in a post to beginners has nothing to do with your perpetuation of the myth of the superiority of atmospheric firings over electric firings or the false claim that:

 

"potters who fire fuel burning kilns can get wonderful colors and flashing of golden highlights in their iron rich glazes.  these effects are generally not available to those of us firing electric, lower temperature kilns."

 

In fact, effects equal to and superior to reduction firings are generally available to anyone smart enough to program a few holds and slow ramp downs on an electric kiln.

 

Jim

[Diane Puckett]

"In fact, effects equal to and superior to reduction firings are generally available to anyone smart enough to program a few holds and slow ramp downs on an electric kiln."

 

Yes! There is hope for me!

[oldlady]

if i were not so stupid that i cannot post pictures, the original would have contained 3 pictures, one red, one red and one red with gold and green flecks.

 

all three fired in my cone 6 electric kiln.  and jim, "can get" doesn't mean "anyone can always get" which these three students were furious about.

 

believing the label on a commercial glaze is something i will not do.   test, test, test.  do you want to be responsible for something bad happening to someone who buys your work?

 

 

at least today, someone is paying attention, there has been little activity here in the last 3 or 4 days.

[oldlady]

pompots, some of the questions asked here indicate that some beginning potters are not sure about firing clay to maturity, what cone firing is, what is the difference if they use a high fire clay and a low fire glaze or the reverse.  this is a very big audience and many of them have little experience and lots of misinformation.  even the labels cannot be believed at all times and in all situations.  food safe is an inaccurate catch-all that i hear too often.

 

how is giving a suggestion to get educated not in the best interests of everyone?   there are no complete answers and that is the message.

[Benzine]

I've used several low fire, oxidation, food safe, bright red glazes in my classroom over the years.  I still use one, as it's pretty popular with my students.  They are a little more expensive, than some of the other glazes, but not prohibitively so.

 

Here is a link, to the glaze series they are in, and thumbnails of the colors are posted to the right.  There are three good reds, in this series.

 

http://www.dickblick.com/products/amaco-liquid-gloss-glazes-lg-series/

[bciskepottery]

Here is the fine print from one commercial glaze source . . . Amaco; I'm pretty confident that other manufacturers have similar statements.  Bottom line: even Amaco (and I am confident every other manufacturer) will tell the end user to independently test for "food safe" (however that is defined) due to differences in firing and possible layering/mixing of glazes with one another -- which create yet another glaze.  Sounds like they (and all the other manufacturers) employ good legal counsel to insert all the right clauses and conditions on their websites and labels. . . to remove them from any liability if we use their product.  Commercial glazes and underglazes use encapsulated cadmium -- in their reds and other colors -- but notice their statement only addresses the use of raw cadmium.  As John Baymore would exhort us -- test, test, test and don't blindly accept the label. 

 

Not All Lead Free Glazes Are Dinnerware Safe

All AMACO® glaze labels comply with FDA Guidelines to determine whether or not they meet dinnerware safe testing requirements. Please note: Not all AMACO® Non-Toxic lead free glazes are dinnerware safe. In addition, some CL listed AMACO® glazes do meet FDA Guidelines for safety and have been determined to be dinnerware safe—but are not suitable for use in schools and are for professional or adult use only. In order to determine whether a glaze is dinnerware safe, you must read the label. Those glazes which are both dinnerware safe and lead free are shown with a . Those lead free glazes that are not dinnerware safe are shown with a . Plan art projects accordingly.

AMACO® recommends that the producers of any dinnerware for sale submit their production to an independent approved laboratory in order to test for release or leaching of hazardous materials such as lead or cadmium to meet FDA Guidelines in an applicable category BEFORE DINNERWARE IS SOLD. Many variables (such as exact firing temperature, contamination from other ware being fired along with dinnerware, and glazes that may not provide a stable surface adequate for food safety) are factors in whether a specific dinnerware line meets with FDA Guidelines.

Over sixty years ago, AMACO® formulated the F-Series of lead free glazes specifically for dinnerware safe ceramics. A well-formulated glaze like the F-Series will result in a stable surface, which will not dissolve in contact with foods. AMACO® submits all of its glazes to an independent approved laboratory for testing of leaching of hazardous materials to establish a dinnerware status for each glaze. Only those glazes (which pass FDA guidelines for dinnerware glazes) receive the dinnerware safe seal on glaze labels.

() Dinnerware Safe glazes contain no lead or raw cadmium bearing ingredients.

() Not Dinnerware Safe glazes contain no lead or raw cadmium bearing ingredients, but we do not recommend these glazes on surfaces which come in contact with food or drink due to the soft or crackle nature of the glaze, even though they pass tests for hazardous release.

Note: In order for glazes to be dinnerware safe, they must be fired to recommended firing temperature. Glaze products are not suitable for ingestion or inhalation.

Tableware producers must have all finished ware tested and approved as safe for dinnerware through a certified laboratory due to possible variations in firing temperature and possible contamination.

[Benzine]

I follow the label, for my classroom glazes.  I have also personally taste tested each one.....Despite the fancy, sometimes food-related names of the glazes, I don't recommend any of them.

[jrgpots]

Decorum is defined propriety and good taste in conduct or appearance. I enjoy the "decorum" of those in this forum. I come here as part of my learning process. I ask question, I make mistakes, but my lord, I don't Put down others for their lack of knowledge.

[oldlady]

how can just a description of the varieties of red result in such feelings of  being deeply hurt?   what are you reading into this that was not there to begin with.?

[oldlady]

my goodness!  some of you are reading something more than a simple description of red as used when talking about glazes.  how can a simple definition insult someone?   who sees themselves being insulted?  i am not putting anyone down, just defining a term.

 

claypple has mentioned tomato red.   that is usually shown in pictures and recipes as an iron red. 

 

thank you bciske for enlarging the discussion with solid facts.

 

Chris, don't forget they also have Zambonies!

 

Jrgpots, having decorum is not something i have ever been accused of.  we are all students, we are all teachers, please, someone teach me what set you all off!

 

benzine, don't taste the glaze before you "bake" it.

[Claypple]

I think it would've been more helpful for you to ask WHY your glaze didn't turn red as supposed rather than blaming your "furious" students.  Or just use a different glaze. Try Mayco maybe? They are more reliable; especially for the beginners.

[Benzine]

Jrgpots, having decorum is not something i have ever been accused of.  we are all students, we are all teachers, please, someone teach me what set you all off!

 

 

benzine, don't taste the glaze before you "bake" it.

I wouldn't say "Set Off", people just provided evidence contrary to your assertion(s).  You said that getting a food-safe, "Santa Red" with low fire oxidation is both difficult, and fairly toxic.  Several people have posted examples, of how this just isn't true.

 

Also, you can't expect me, to not taste a "Chocolate Brown" glaze, especially when it looks a lot like pudding.

[oldlady]

claypple, sorry, they were not my students.  i do not teach.  they were talking about a pot one had brought in.  it was clearly a reduction fired piece with melted spots of metal that bled through the covering glaze.  then they were arguing about what color produced a shino piece that was on a shelf.  the instructor is the one i felt sorry for, busy trying to save the shelves.  i did not talk to them at all, just wandered around looking before i left.  there was a very substantial set of reference books on shelves in the corner.  a cursory inspection of any of the basic books would have shown what they were looking at. my problem is just that today's students need basics and to get them is sometimes work which seems to be out of style.