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For New Folks, Red Is Not Santa Suit Red, Usually

it depends on your definition

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#1 oldlady

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 10:45 AM

for you new people who think that red is the color of santa's suit you should understand that when many experienced potters talk about a red glaze they are talking about a rust color obtained from iron in the glaze recipe. it all depends on your frame of reference.  

 

if you are purchasing little bottles from a manufacturer of underglaze or glaze you have a color chart from them that shows a real, santa suit red.  as you move into making your own glazes, know that the color in those commercial glazes comes from an ingredient that is dangerous for the average studio potter to use. cadmium is a carcinogen so it is not generally found in home studios.  bottled red glaze should not be used on surfaces that will come in contact with food.  if you want to paint little red flowers on the outside of your vases or flowerpots, go ahead, just not on a plate. 

 

potters who fire fuel burning kilns can get wonderful colors and flashing of golden highlights in their iron rich glazes.  these effects are generally not available to those of us firing electric, lower temperature kilns.  people like those effects and think they are "colors" and want to buy a jar of that "color".  some manufacturers recognized this and have developed glazes that give some of these effects by layering glazes on top of each other.  so you buy 2 or 3 jars of something that looks great on their samples but you cannot get the same results even though you try everything you can think of. (probably ruining several shelves in the meanwhile).

 

all of this is just by way of introducing the idea that as beginners it is your responsibility to educate yourself.  asking a question here is helpful to solve a single problem but it does not end your search for knowledge.  if nothing else, get a fundamental book that has a thing called a glossary in the back.  learn the terminology and explore the subject as thoroughly as you can.  start at the beginning of a general text and READ it from cover to cover.  do not skip around looking at pictures until you read the text.

 

all this because i visited a small teaching studio while several beginners were trying to figure out how to achieve something one of them saw and wanted to duplicate.  remember that ice dancing in the Olympics looks beautiful but would you expect to do that your first time out on ice?

 

the first color is Spectrum Christmas red out of a bottle, the second is Don's crimson (not the original name, not candy apple red) and the third is from Jane Cullum who calls it Chinese Red.

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Edited by oldlady, 07 August 2013 - 01:58 PM.

"putting you down does not raise me up."

#2 smokin pots

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 11:50 AM

Wow! That was arrogant! Love your quote at the end,"putting you down does not raise me up". Next time you might wait until some "new people" ask
for your opinion before slamming them.

regards,
juli
la paloma texas pottery

#3 OffCenter

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 11:53 AM

potters who fire fuel burning kilns can get wonderful colors and flashing of golden highlights in their iron rich glazes.  these effects are generally not available to those of us firing electric...

 

Dead wrong, there Oldlady! I've fired all kinds of "fuel burning" kilns and worked with iron saturate glazes extensively in cone 10 reduction firings but never even came close to the rich, deep, micro-crystalized glazes I get at cone 6 in an electric kiln. If you want to see some of the nicest iron saturate reds around take a look at Steven Hill's work. He spent 30 or whatever years firing cone 10 reduction and on a dime switched to cone 6 oxidation.

 

Jim


E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#4 Claypple

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 12:03 PM

Oldlady, what made you post this bitter-out-of-frustration post anyway?

Looks like out of nowhere. 



#5 trina

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 12:54 PM

1. Some of you non Canadians might not know this but when I put on skates for the first time I was Bobby Or

2. at least those guys in the small studio were figure'n

i have seen worse

T

#6 oldlady

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 01:40 PM

information and facts are not opinions.

red is not red if it is iron red and you expected santa suit red.

small bottles are expensive and carefully formulated and some ingredients are carcinogens.

layering glazes sometimes results in too thick an application and glaze runs onto shelves.

discussions among students without an instructor's input can result in mistakes from inexperience.

"generally not available" does not mean impossible and i would certainly not include you in a post to beginners, jim.

yes, those guys were figure'n while their instructor was busy grinding excess glaze off 3 shelves with 4 6inch circles of glaze an inch high.

 

 

defining red was my only intent.  tell me who i "slammed" by that definition.


"putting you down does not raise me up."

#7 Claypple

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 01:49 PM

Another fact (not an opinion): It is too hot outside today. 



#8 Pompots

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 03:30 PM

"bottled red glaze should not be used on surfaces that will come in contact with food"

 

To this quote, I would like to add that If you use a food safe clear glaze over your red or any other undergalze the piece will be food safe. So if someone wants to make  Santas Suite red color plates, go ahead.......it is food safe.

 

Oldlady, If you really want to help the new guys with Information and your facts you should give the complete Information and facts.



#9 Claypple

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 03:53 PM

Stroke and Coat has: "Ruby Slippers", Candy apple red", Cinnamon Stix", "Hot Tamale" (- the latter is redder than red!). All of them are Santa/scarlert/blood/tomatoe red.    ALL of them ARE FOOD SAFE. 

Coyote's "Red MBG019" is slightly on a cranberry side red, but still looks red for me and food safe as well.

There are actually more commercial glazes of other colors that are not food safe. (Usually blue)

Ironically, Coyote has "Iron Matt" that is not recommended for food use.



#10 trina

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 03:56 PM

Did I mention Bobby Or?



#11 OffCenter

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 04:02 PM

Did I mention Bobby Or?

 

Yes, you did.


E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#12 Chris Campbell

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 04:27 PM

Not to get too frisky here but it is spelled Orr .... you should know that if you intend to do crossword puzzles while you wait for a kiln to cool ... he is always the three letter word for hockey player.

Also, those guys skated on what we call "Chicken Ice" ... means there were no rocks, sticks, boards, cracks, ripples or other impediments in the ice ... so that is why they could skate so fast in straight lines.

 

Great quote today in the newspaper that I am gonna steal, edit a bit and call mine .....

"The plural of anecdote is not data."


Chris Campbell
Contemporary Fine Colored Porcelain
www.ccpottery.com

TRY ...   FAIL ...  LEARN ...  REPEAT


#13 OffCenter

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 04:37 PM

Unfortunately, Oldlady, you massacred the facts. As Claypple points out there are plenty of red glazes, even reds brighter than Santa Claus's coat, that are safe for dishes.

 

Not including me in a post to beginners has nothing to do with your perpetuation of the myth of the superiority of atmospheric firings over electric firings or the false claim that:

 

"potters who fire fuel burning kilns can get wonderful colors and flashing of golden highlights in their iron rich glazes.  these effects are generally not available to those of us firing electric, lower temperature kilns."

 

In fact, effects equal to and superior to reduction firings are generally available to anyone smart enough to program a few holds and slow ramp downs on an electric kiln.

 

Jim


E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#14 Diane Puckett

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 06:49 PM

"In fact, effects equal to and superior to reduction firings are generally available to anyone smart enough to program a few holds and slow ramp downs on an electric kiln."

Yes! There is hope for me!
Diane Puckett
Dry Ridge Pottery

#15 oldlady

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 07:41 PM

if i were not so stupid that i cannot post pictures, the original would have contained 3 pictures, one red, one red and one red with gold and green flecks.

 

all three fired in my cone 6 electric kiln.  and jim, "can get" doesn't mean "anyone can always get" which these three students were furious about.

 

believing the label on a commercial glaze is something i will not do.   test, test, test.  do you want to be responsible for something bad happening to someone who buys your work?

 

 

at least today, someone is paying attention, there has been little activity here in the last 3 or 4 days.


"putting you down does not raise me up."

#16 oldlady

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 07:45 PM

pompots, some of the questions asked here indicate that some beginning potters are not sure about firing clay to maturity, what cone firing is, what is the difference if they use a high fire clay and a low fire glaze or the reverse.  this is a very big audience and many of them have little experience and lots of misinformation.  even the labels cannot be believed at all times and in all situations.  food safe is an inaccurate catch-all that i hear too often.

 

how is giving a suggestion to get educated not in the best interests of everyone?   there are no complete answers and that is the message.


"putting you down does not raise me up."

#17 Benzine

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:32 PM

I've used several low fire, oxidation, food safe, bright red glazes in my classroom over the years.  I still use one, as it's pretty popular with my students.  They are a little more expensive, than some of the other glazes, but not prohibitively so.

 

Here is a link, to the glaze series they are in, and thumbnails of the colors are posted to the right.  There are three good reds, in this series.

 

http://www.dickblick...azes-lg-series/


"Anything worth believing, is worth questioning"

#18 bciskepottery

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 09:07 PM

Here is the fine print from one commercial glaze source . . . Amaco; I'm pretty confident that other manufacturers have similar statements.  Bottom line: even Amaco (and I am confident every other manufacturer) will tell the end user to independently test for "food safe" (however that is defined) due to differences in firing and possible layering/mixing of glazes with one another -- which create yet another glaze.  Sounds like they (and all the other manufacturers) employ good legal counsel to insert all the right clauses and conditions on their websites and labels. . . to remove them from any liability if we use their product.  Commercial glazes and underglazes use encapsulated cadmium -- in their reds and other colors -- but notice their statement only addresses the use of raw cadmium.  As John Baymore would exhort us -- test, test, test and don't blindly accept the label. 

 

Not All Lead Free Glazes Are Dinnerware Safe dinnerware-safe-logo-web.jpgdinnerware-safe-logo-not-web.jpg

f-series-rocket-man-cramer-sm.jpg

All AMACO® glaze labels comply with FDA Guidelines to determine whether or not they meet dinnerware safe testing requirements. Please note: Not all AMACO® Non-Toxic lead free glazes are dinnerware safe. In addition, some CL listed AMACO® glazes do meet FDA Guidelines for safety and have been determined to be dinnerware safe—but are not suitable for use in schools and are for professional or adult use only. In order to determine whether a glaze is dinnerware safe, you must read the label. Those glazes which are both dinnerware safe and lead free are shown with a dinnerware-safe-logo-web.jpg. Those lead free glazes that are not dinnerware safe are shown with a dinnerware-safe-logo-not-web.jpg. Plan art projects accordingly.

AMACO® recommends that the producers of any dinnerware for sale submit their production to an independent approved laboratory in order to test for release or leaching of hazardous materials such as lead or cadmium to meet FDA Guidelines in an applicable category BEFORE DINNERWARE IS SOLD. Many variables (such as exact firing temperature, contamination from other ware being fired along with dinnerware, and glazes that may not provide a stable surface adequate for food safety) are factors in whether a specific dinnerware line meets with FDA Guidelines.

Over sixty years ago, AMACO® formulated the F-Series of lead free glazes specifically for dinnerware safe ceramics. A well-formulated glaze like the F-Series will result in a stable surface, which will not dissolve in contact with foods. AMACO® submits all of its glazes to an independent approved laboratory for testing of leaching of hazardous materials to establish a dinnerware status for each glaze. Only those glazes (which pass FDA guidelines for dinnerware glazes) receive the dinnerware safe seal on glaze labels.

(dinnerware-safe-logo-web.jpg) Dinnerware Safe glazes contain no lead or raw cadmium bearing ingredients.

(dinnerware-safe-logo-not-web.jpg) Not Dinnerware Safe glazes contain no lead or raw cadmium bearing ingredients, but we do not recommend these glazes on surfaces which come in contact with food or drink due to the soft or crackle nature of the glaze, even though they pass tests for hazardous release.

Note: In order for glazes to be dinnerware safe, they must be fired to recommended firing temperature. Glaze products are not suitable for ingestion or inhalation.

Tableware producers must have all finished ware tested and approved as safe for dinnerware through a certified laboratory due to possible variations in firing temperature and possible contamination.



#19 Benzine

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 09:22 PM

I follow the label, for my classroom glazes.  I have also personally taste tested each one.....Despite the fancy, sometimes food-related names of the glazes, I don't recommend any of them.


"Anything worth believing, is worth questioning"

#20 jrgpots

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 10:00 PM

Decorum is defined propriety and good taste in conduct or appearance. I enjoy the "decorum" of those in this forum. I come here as part of my learning process. I ask question, I make mistakes, but my lord, I don't Put down others for their lack of knowledge.




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