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Multi layer glazes peeling


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#1 docweathers

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:06 PM

I am dunking test tiles in multi layers of different glazes. Any of the glazes will stick fine as a first layer of glaze. When the second layer of a different glazes dries it peels off both layers of glazes, like potato chips, back to bare bisque. I have tried putting it on damp bisque, dry bisque, letting the first layer dry before adding the second layer, adding the second layer when the first layer is damp adding CMC to both layers, but I'm still having the problem

Layers of glazes are thick.

Larry

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#2 Mark C.

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:20 PM

I am dunking test tiles in multi layers of different glazes. Any of the glazes will stick fine as a first layer of glaze. When the second layer of a different glazes dries it peels off both layers of glazes, like potato chips, back to bare bisque. I have tried putting it on damp bisque, dry bisque, letting the first layer dry before adding the second layer, adding the second layer when the first layer is damp adding CMC to both layers, but I'm still having the problem

Layers of glazes are thick.


Are these commercial glazes? As i have little knowledge in the buy glaze in jars field.


Some glazes will peel off others-its best to recoat those before 1st glaze drys
also thick glazes tend to peel more than thin ones.
Think of glaze like clay its hard to put a handle on a dry pot without it peeling off.
Mark
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#3 docweathers

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:24 PM

These are all glazes that I have mixed myself like strontium crystal magic, Frasa wood ash etc. I will follow your suggestion and try getting things a lot wetter and see if that helps.

thanks Larry

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#4 Mark C.

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:12 PM

These are all glazes that I have mixed myself like strontium crystal magic, Frasa wood ash etc. I will follow your suggestion and try getting things a lot wetter and see if that helps.

thanks Larry


Larry both those glazes you mentioned are going to be harder to layer over. Ash by its nature is just that ash and sluffs off-the barium/stromtium is also one that does not play well with others. you can get layers but it will require testing or additives or both.
Ceramics is a bit like doctoring-easy- cheap and fast to learn and practice. Just kidding

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#5 OffCenter

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:54 PM

It is better to spray when layering glazes. You can control the thickness of the glazes much easier that way. In most cases even layering 5 or 6 glazes, you still want those to add up in thickness to about the thickness of 1 glaze dipped (maybe 2). SCM (with yellow iron for reds, without iron for blues-greens) shouldn't be on thick. If it is thick it muddies the glazes above it instead of bringing out the crystals. As long as your test tile is dry and dust-free you shouldn't have any peeling if you spray.

Jim
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#6 docweathers

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 04:11 PM

I know I should be spraying but on test tiles switching 50 or 60 glazes in the gun is just a real pain.

Just making everything a whole lot wetter than I ever imagined seems to be working fine

What sort of additives were you suggesting to improve adherence?

thanks for the tip on keeping scm thin.

when I think of glazing and doctoring I'm always reminded of Will Rogers Aphorism "most of what we know just ain't so".. And I'm not kidding.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Larry

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#7 neilestrick

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:20 PM

Dipping or spraying doesn't matter if everything else is right. I double dip every pot I make. But if the glazes are too thick they'll peel off. If the surface cracks like dry mud as the glazes dry, they're too thick. I keep my glazes at a creamy chocolate milk consistency. First dip gets a 6 count, second dip gets 4.
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#8 OffCenter

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 06:27 PM

Dipping or spraying doesn't matter if everything else is right. I double dip every pot I make. But if the glazes are too thick they'll peel off. If the surface cracks like dry mud as the glazes dry, they're too thick. I keep my glazes at a creamy chocolate milk consistency. First dip gets a 6 count, second dip gets 4.


I disagree. The difference is extreme and it matters a lot. Layering 5 or 6 glazes on a pot with a spray gun is easy. Layering that many by dipping and you'll either have the glazes peel off (if you're lucky) or run off when fired.

Doc, I think you should bite the bullet and spray. When I'm doing test tiles I use an airbrush. It has a little cup on the side that rinses out quick and easy and is almost as easy dipping plus I have accurate tests instead of test that have little in common with the actual application.

Jim
E pur si muove.

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#9 neilestrick

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:18 AM


Dipping or spraying doesn't matter if everything else is right. I double dip every pot I make. But if the glazes are too thick they'll peel off. If the surface cracks like dry mud as the glazes dry, they're too thick. I keep my glazes at a creamy chocolate milk consistency. First dip gets a 6 count, second dip gets 4.


I disagree. The difference is extreme and it matters a lot. Layering 5 or 6 glazes on a pot with a spray gun is easy. Layering that many by dipping and you'll either have the glazes peel off (if you're lucky) or run off when fired.

Doc, I think you should bite the bullet and spray. When I'm doing test tiles I use an airbrush. It has a little cup on the side that rinses out quick and easy and is almost as easy dipping plus I have accurate tests instead of test that have little in common with the actual application.

Jim

Well, yes, if you're putting on 5 or 6 glazes. But he said he's doing two glazes. There's no reason to invest in a spray system for that unless you're going for the look that sprayed glazes can give.
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#10 docweathers

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:29 AM

first I can't imagine putting on five or six glazes, something for only the most advanced potters. I am just beginning to broach the idea of two layers. Maybe I will have to experiment with both dipping and spraying and see if it makes a meaningful difference.

I find this whole glazing thing overwhelming with all of the possible variables both in chemistry and firing.

thanks for all of the useful insights

Larry

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#11 Mark C.

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:57 AM

Larry
I have found one quik way is to throw a small say 6 inch pie plate and cut it in say 8- 10 slices ( picture a pizza slicer) then those once bisqued will be your test tiles (you can put a hole for hanging if you like)
These will have both vertical and horizontal surfaces for glazes which run or pool different. Mark all the tiles on bottom with say iron wash numbers so you know which are which after firing tests
Test all your glazes and double dip or whatever and record all the info then fire. This way you will learn and see all the combos and what works and does not. If you do this once it will open doors later at least for those galzes
You may need several of these pie tiles to do all your glazes.
We did this type of testing back in glaze class and its worked well for 40 years as you learn a lot in a short period.
Mark
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#12 OffCenter

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:02 AM



Dipping or spraying doesn't matter if everything else is right. I double dip every pot I make. But if the glazes are too thick they'll peel off. If the surface cracks like dry mud as the glazes dry, they're too thick. I keep my glazes at a creamy chocolate milk consistency. First dip gets a 6 count, second dip gets 4.


I disagree. The difference is extreme and it matters a lot. Layering 5 or 6 glazes on a pot with a spray gun is easy. Layering that many by dipping and you'll either have the glazes peel off (if you're lucky) or run off when fired.

Doc, I think you should bite the bullet and spray. When I'm doing test tiles I use an airbrush. It has a little cup on the side that rinses out quick and easy and is almost as easy dipping plus I have accurate tests instead of test that have little in common with the actual application.

Jim

Well, yes, if you're putting on 5 or 6 glazes. But he said he's doing two glazes. There's no reason to invest in a spray system for that unless you're going for the look that sprayed glazes can give.


I interpreted his "I am dunking test tiles in multi layers of different glazes" to mean the possibility of more than 2 glazes. Also, he mentioned SCM and that is usually used as a modifier to the glazes over it. And I think he indicated he already has a sprayer.

Doc, check out the following thread. Min and John have put a lot of work into making iron saturates work and both are incredibly helpful. http://ceramicartsda..._60

Jim
E pur si muove.

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#13 docweathers

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:32 PM

That is a great thread for firing schedules... Thanks

Do you like the pie pan tiles better than ones made with an extruder? I have fallen into the Jon Britt video of extruding tiles and using a date stamp to impress a number into the still soft tile... But I am not sure that is the best way.

Thanks Larry

Larry

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#14 OffCenter

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:25 PM

Doc, check out the Saturated Iron thread again (Despite the title it has nothing to do with bisque and is about Iron reds, layering, etc.) Wyndham posted something interesting about glazes peeling off SCM.

Jim
E pur si muove.

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#15 docweathers

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:13 PM

Jim

Thanks for pointing that out.

Larry

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#16 docweathers

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 01:11 AM


Dipping or spraying doesn't matter if everything else is right. I double dip every pot I make. But if the glazes are too thick they'll peel off. If the surface cracks like dry mud as the glazes dry, they're too thick. I keep my glazes at a creamy chocolate milk consistency. First dip gets a 6 count, second dip gets 4.


I disagree. The difference is extreme and it matters a lot. Layering 5 or 6 glazes on a pot with a spray gun is easy. Layering that many by dipping and you'll either have the glazes peel off (if you're lucky) or run off when fired.

Doc, I think you should bite the bullet and spray. When I'm doing test tiles I use an airbrush. It has a little cup on the side that rinses out quick and easy and is almost as easy dipping plus I have accurate tests instead of test that have little in common with the actual application.

Jim

Jim

After doing some tests, I agree with you. If you want to know what it glaze will look like sprayed, you have to spray it. Sometimes dunked test tiles looked nothing like the sprayed glaze. Thanks for the salient advice.

All future test tiles will be sprayed.

Larry

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#17 OffCenter

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:42 AM



Dipping or spraying doesn't matter if everything else is right. I double dip every pot I make. But if the glazes are too thick they'll peel off. If the surface cracks like dry mud as the glazes dry, they're too thick. I keep my glazes at a creamy chocolate milk consistency. First dip gets a 6 count, second dip gets 4.


I disagree. The difference is extreme and it matters a lot. Layering 5 or 6 glazes on a pot with a spray gun is easy. Layering that many by dipping and you'll either have the glazes peel off (if you're lucky) or run off when fired.

Doc, I think you should bite the bullet and spray. When I'm doing test tiles I use an airbrush. It has a little cup on the side that rinses out quick and easy and is almost as easy dipping plus I have accurate tests instead of test that have little in common with the actual application.

Jim

Jim

After doing some tests, I agree with you. If you want to know what it glaze will look like sprayed, you have to spray it. Sometimes dunked test tiles looked nothing like the sprayed glaze. Thanks for the salient advice.

All future test tiles will be sprayed.

Larry


Larry... An airbrush makes testing by spraying almost as easy as dipping. Mine has a little cup on it. I pour a tiny amount of glaze into the cup, spray the test tile thick at top (maybe 3 or 4 sprays) medium in middle and thin at bottom (maybe 1 spray), dump the glaze, sink airbrush into pan of water and spray underwater until clear, and I'm ready for the next tile.

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#18 docweathers

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:40 AM

Jim

Nice cleaning technique.

Larry

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