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Firing a lidded box


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#1 Pugaboo

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:09 PM

I kind of know the basics and I have read in books that they should be fired together am looking for more than a sentence or paragraphs worth of info I am finding in most books. I work in Little Loafers and bisque to ^04 and glaze fire to ^6. This is a slab built box. Rolled with slab roller set to leather hard cut with template and pizza cutter, scored assembled the top cut down about an inch from top and removed from cube a flange added inside the form for lid placement then decorated with feet and a knob. UG decoration. Clear glaze final outside and complementary glaze interior.

I am fairly sure I can bisque with the lid ON the box, am I Correct? Any special things I should be aware of? If fired with lid in place do I need to poke a hole somewhere?

For glaze firing have read can fire with lid in place if Alumina hydrate mixed with wax is applied to the touching rims. Is this true? Is Alumina Hydrate the same thing as kiln wash? Have also read can use little wads of clay to separate the lid from the body... won't the wads stick to the form? I don't think the rims can be glazed at all no matter what am I correct in this as well?

I know they could be fired separately but am trying to make sure any minor movement will stay together so the lid will still fit the box after firing. Any pointers including books on firing would be greatly appreciated.

Terry
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#2 Mark C.

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 07:11 PM

bisque fire with lid on.
Glaze fire with lid on-use wax on seat and lid where seat touches.
The alumina is only needed on bodies that fuze together like porcelain.

I have no idea what little loafers are?-my guess is shoes like the hush puppies of distant days-it really does not matter what shoes you wear in clay work.
Mark
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#3 oldlady

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 07:13 PM

i think you have the right idea just too many of them at once.

of course you can bisque anything touching anything. i remember the shock of seeing a friend stacking three or more things high and wall to wall in a bisque firing. they came out fine. i stack like items often when i bisque but only 3 or 4 at a time.

yes, fire the lid on the box to keep the two from distorting and not fitting properly when finished. be sure you have made the lid fit tightly enough not to slip in use but with enough play to fit some alumina hydrate between the two after the bisque. no, it is not the same as kiln wash.

yes, separate them with alumina hydrate in the glaze firing. i have not heard about using it in a wax vehicle, sounds like a good idea. i have only used it in water. help here someone else. just make sure there is absolutely no runny glaze that will drip down over the separation between lid and box. i am sure you have seen or picked up factory made teapots and noticed the dry unglazed portion of the lid and the edge of the teapot. they were fired together with alumina between them.

wadding is used in woodfiring to keep pots off the shelves and to separate lids from pots and to keep stacked plates from glazing themselves into one thick plate. make sure you are thinking of the proper ceramic definition of wadding. you will not use wadding in an electric kiln. someone else help out here. not familiar with wadding in any other context. (now just watch, someone doing far out experimental stuff will tell you the opposite.)

there are lots of books, some cover everything and some, mostly the more recent ones, cover a specific area. i get most of mine from the library and can't think of one right now that will serve your needs.

glad to see you are doing so much fun stuff. hope it comes out meeting your expectations or as a pleasant surprise even if it does not.
"putting you down does not raise me up."

#4 oldlady

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 07:20 PM

bisque fire with lid on.
Glaze fire with lid on-use wax on seat and lid where seat touches.
The alumina is only needed on bodies that fuze together like porcelain.

I have no idea what little loafers are?-my guess is shoes like the hush puppies of distant days-it really does not matter what shoes you wear in clay work.
Mark





mark, you are funny! though my feet are a size 9, i use little loafers too. it is a really fine grained white cone 6 body. the original Loafers Glory is a cone 10 body named after a place in north carolina. i think it is called little loafers because it is only a cone 6. THOUGH................i know a very good potter who has fired it to cone 10. both are from Highwater clay in Asheville.
"putting you down does not raise me up."

#5 OffCenter

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 08:27 PM

it really does not matter what shoes you wear in clay work.
Mark


Okay. That almost made me spit my beer on the keyboard laughing!

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#6 Mark C.

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:17 PM

All I have right now is a good sense of humor as my right arm is in a sling and cannot be moved above 30 Degrees for a few weeks.
So I'm back to one handed typing and no throwing so humor is level is on high.

As far as alumina I dip my wax sponge in a bowl of powder and wipe the lids. The seat on pot I just wax with a sponge with no alumina.My porcelain tend to stick lids to pots at near cone 11 if I do not do this.
I assume your cone 6 porcelain clay would do the same at near vitrification temps
As far as shoes I use old ones in the shop as they get trashed fast.
Mark
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#7 Marcia Selsor

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 05:10 AM

I mix aluminum oxide in with my liquid wax for porcelain lids and on the feet to keep it from sticking.For bisque just make sure you have a little wiggle room...not too tight.

Marcia

#8 OffCenter

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 07:54 AM

All I have right now is a good sense of humor as my right arm is in a sling and cannot be moved above 30 Degrees for a few weeks.


Sorry to hear that, Mark. Hope your arm heals quicker than expected. I guess this means there will be a pottery shortage on the west coast.

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#9 Benzine

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:18 AM

Why is it, that porcelain sticks, at high temps? Is it only porcelain that does this and requires the mix of aluminum oxide?

Mark, it probably wouldn't be worthwhile, but I taught a student to throw one handed, a few years ago. It's different, but not as hard, as one would think. But like I said, for you, it is probably not worthwhile.
"Anything worth believing, is worth questioning"

#10 TJR

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:39 PM

Why is it, that porcelain sticks, at high temps? Is it only porcelain that does this and requires the mix of aluminum oxide?

Mark, it probably wouldn't be worthwhile, but I taught a student to throw one handed, a few years ago. It's different, but not as hard, as one would think. But like I said, for you, it is probably not worthwhile.


Benzine;
I use Alumina Hydrate on all my lids-stoneware and porcelain.I also put a light coating on porcelain foot rings on bowls as they are inverted after trimming. I use alumina and water, then cover with liquid wax resist to seal it in. Sounds onerous, but it takes seconds. I use one of those cheap sponge brushes from the dollar store.
TJR.

#11 TJR

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:46 PM

All I have right now is a good sense of humor as my right arm is in a sling and cannot be moved above 30 Degrees for a few weeks.
So I'm back to one handed typing and no throwing so humor is level is on high.

As far as alumina I dip my wax sponge in a bowl of powder and wipe the lids. The seat on pot I just wax with a sponge with no alumina.My porcelain tend to stick lids to pots at near cone 11 if I do not do this.
I assume your cone 6 porcelain clay would do the same at near vitrification temps
As far as shoes I use old ones in the shop as they get trashed fast.
Mark


Mark;
Sorry to hear about your injury. On Tuesday, I fell in the back lane while walking the dog. Thought I sprained my ankle. Turns out it is broken. I have one of those big plastic casts like a ski boot on my left foot for six weeks. Although I can still throw, I don't feel like it.Hope you get better soon.
TJR.

#12 OffCenter

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:06 PM


All I have right now is a good sense of humor as my right arm is in a sling and cannot be moved above 30 Degrees for a few weeks.
So I'm back to one handed typing and no throwing so humor is level is on high.

As far as alumina I dip my wax sponge in a bowl of powder and wipe the lids. The seat on pot I just wax with a sponge with no alumina.My porcelain tend to stick lids to pots at near cone 11 if I do not do this.
I assume your cone 6 porcelain clay would do the same at near vitrification temps
As far as shoes I use old ones in the shop as they get trashed fast.
Mark


Mark;
Sorry to hear about your injury. On Tuesday, I fell in the back lane while walking the dog. Thought I sprained my ankle. Turns out it is broken. I have one of those big plastic casts like a ski boot on my left foot for six weeks. Although I can still throw, I don't feel like it.Hope you get better soon.
TJR.


OooooH! That's awful. Sorry to hear that. I broke my arm and leg trying to hang glide. No matter how much plastic I wrapped around the cast I still got water in it in the shower. It irritated me so much that I decided to drill holes in the bottom of the plaster cast and had to go to the emergency room when I drilled a hole in my foot. They had to remove the cast to treat my foot then put a new cast on that was even bigger to accommodate the dressing on my foot. If you drill a hole in your cast be very careful to stop before you hit meat.

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#13 MichaelP

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:34 PM

I decided to drill holes in the bottom of the plaster cast and had to go to the emergency room when I drilled a hole in my foot

I can imagine the hysterical laughter in the ER when you told them what had happened. Posted Image

#14 Benzine

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:19 PM


Why is it, that porcelain sticks, at high temps? Is it only porcelain that does this and requires the mix of aluminum oxide?

Mark, it probably wouldn't be worthwhile, but I taught a student to throw one handed, a few years ago. It's different, but not as hard, as one would think. But like I said, for you, it is probably not worthwhile.


Benzine;
I use Alumina Hydrate on all my lids-stoneware and porcelain.I also put a light coating on porcelain foot rings on bowls as they are inverted after trimming. I use alumina and water, then cover with liquid wax resist to seal it in. Sounds onerous, but it takes seconds. I use one of those cheap sponge brushes from the dollar store.
TJR.


Interesting. I used stoneware in college, and at my second teaching job, but I never used anything where the lids touched. I just left it bare.

Also Jim, as I said before, if you wrote a book on your experiences, I'd read it.
"Anything worth believing, is worth questioning"

#15 mnnaj

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:31 PM

Terry, make sure there is not a drop or molecule of glaze on the box or lid where they touch, especially a chino.


I was in a class where a bunch of students thought they could wax over the glaze and still get the top off, they were surprised.
Sorry to hear about all the injuries, even though they sound funny - stop before you hit meat. I'll remember that.

MNNAJ




#16 Mark C.

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:38 PM


All I have right now is a good sense of humor as my right arm is in a sling and cannot be moved above 30 Degrees for a few weeks.
So I'm back to one handed typing and no throwing so humor is level is on high.

As far as alumina I dip my wax sponge in a bowl of powder and wipe the lids. The seat on pot I just wax with a sponge with no alumina.My porcelain tend to stick lids to pots at near cone 11 if I do not do this.
I assume your cone 6 porcelain clay would do the same at near vitrification temps
As far as shoes I use old ones in the shop as they get trashed fast.
Mark


Mark;
Sorry to hear about your injury. On Tuesday, I fell in the back lane while walking the dog. Thought I sprained my ankle. Turns out it is broken. I have one of those big plastic casts like a ski boot on my left foot for six weeks. Although I can still throw, I don't feel like it.Hope you get better soon.
TJR.


Thanks TJR
Walking the dog can be dangerous thats why we have 2 cats instead-
Broken ankle bummer-hope it heals soon-4-6 weeks???

My story is melonaoma skin cancer-it killed my brother 20 years ago and my sister has had two early stages removed. I have never had any.
I'm the youngest and I get screened every year-3 weeks ago I had a suspicious mole shave biopsied and it came back malignant melanoma.
Last week a team of two surgeons did two things at the same time. First I had radioactive isoptopes injected into mole and collect in armpit lymph nodes- (in my case it went into 3 nodes and I watched it all on a screen develop) this is called sentinal lymph node biopsy-they they then use a small geiger counter find them and cut them out and biopsy themto make sure its not spread to this system
Than a plastic surgeon cut out a 2 1/2 inch hole down to muscle on my shoulder blade to get clean margins. They sew up all these holes and tell you not to get wet or use the arm. I was out for two hours.
This was 1 week ago Tuesday and today I got the report-lymph nodes are clean and mole was very shallow and my staging number is low which means no big deal.
I lost the sling today and get to get back to light work soon. Should be throwing small stuff in a few days. My 1st shower in a week as well. TJR you sit in a tub with foot elevated in a cast to keep it dry. Stitches stay for at least 3 weeks as its very tight on shoulder. I can still do my 40th annual 4 of July show.And now can start typing with two hands.
I did a a few weeks notice so I got lots of pots made did a bunch of shipwreck diving as well as abalone and wraped up a big pottery order.
My friend said it best- getting old is not for the weak of heart

Now I will say I like the clay ice cubes but hate to blow your image as I do not own any loafers and do not drink spirits of any kind except split a beer with my wife when eating Mexican food.
Hey that was the short version.
Mark
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#17 Pres

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 11:12 PM


All I have right now is a good sense of humor as my right arm is in a sling and cannot be moved above 30 Degrees for a few weeks.
So I'm back to one handed typing and no throwing so humor is level is on high.

As far as alumina I dip my wax sponge in a bowl of powder and wipe the lids. The seat on pot I just wax with a sponge with no alumina.My porcelain tend to stick lids to pots at near cone 11 if I do not do this.
I assume your cone 6 porcelain clay would do the same at near vitrification temps
As far as shoes I use old ones in the shop as they get trashed fast.
Mark


Mark;
Sorry to hear about your injury. On Tuesday, I fell in the back lane while walking the dog. Thought I sprained my ankle. Turns out it is broken. I have one of those big plastic casts like a ski boot on my left foot for six weeks. Although I can still throw, I don't feel like it.Hope you get better soon.
TJR.


Mark and TJR, sounds like life outside of the studio can be really dangerous, and we worry about lifting too much clay or bagged material! Hope all of you gimps can get healed back up it is not fun being in a cast. Did the ankle thing several years ago going into school on ice with snow over top in the parking lot. Took 6wks non walking cast, six weeks walking cast and six weeks of physical therapy-broke th leg and ankle twice and then shattered the bone in between. No problems, and didn't miss a day.

Simply retired teacher, not dead, living the dream. on and on and. . . . on. . . .                                                                                 http://picworkspottery.blogspot.com/


#18 OffCenter

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 07:52 AM

My story is melonaoma skin cancer-it killed my brother 20 years ago and my sister has had two early stages removed.



I guess when you get into your 60s you have a story for just about anything anyone mentions. I had the end of nose removed about 4 years ago because of skin cancer. I forget what the operation is called but they had to cut skin off my forehead and move it to my nose to reconstruct the end of my nose. To keep that skin alive they had to leave a tube of skin back to my forehead and my whole face had to be very elaborately bandaged (with it changed every other day) for a month before they could cut the skin connected to my forehead. Fortunately, even after all that, I'm still good-looking.

I was in a class where a bunch of students thought they could wax over the glaze and still get the top off, they were surprised.


Mnnaj, that's funny. What in the world were they thinking!

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#19 Benzine

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 10:37 AM


My story is melonaoma skin cancer-it killed my brother 20 years ago and my sister has had two early stages removed.



I guess when you get into your 60s you have a story for just about anything anyone mentions. I had the end of nose removed about 4 years ago because of skin cancer. I forget what the operation is called but they had to cut skin off my forehead and move it to my nose to reconstruct the end of my nose. To keep that skin alive they had to leave a tube of skin back to my forehead and my whole face had to be very elaborately bandaged (with it changed every other day) for a month before they could cut the skin connected to my forehead. Fortunately, even after all that, I'm still good-looking.


I'm glad both of you gents came through alright. There is no history of any type of cancer in my family, but this doesn't mean I have any illusions of invincibility. I'm not about to start freebasing plutonium powder, out of a cracked asbestos pipe. Luckily, I've always kept my skin protected from the sun. I haven't had a "bad" sunburn in well over a decade, and it was just uncomfortable. Though I spent many a summer, in the fields detasseling, (Anyone, anyone know what that is?) I was always well covered.

Jim, with this new information, regarding your plastic surgery, I'm starting to feel that there is merit to my theory, about you moving around, changing your avatar constantly, to avoid a furious customer, whose grand piano was damaged by a leaky vessel.

I was in a class where a bunch of students thought they could wax over the glaze and still get the top off, they were surprised.


Mnnaj, that's funny. What in the world were they thinking!

Jim


They were thinking the same thing as my students, who put clear glaze over underglaze on the bottoms of projects/ on lids. Apparently they skip over the "Glaze" portion of the name, thinking that it's not glaze, but instead "Magic stuff to make the underglaze shiny"
"Anything worth believing, is worth questioning"

#20 weeble

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 06:12 PM

Corny story there Benzine. Never did that, but my brothers did. Me, I just got to spend time thinning peaches. The glaze on lids reminds me of one instructor they roped in for pottery (she was a painter but had the appropriate mumble of letters after her name to let us get credits for the class) who figured she could set a piece inside another as the outer piece (a bowl) was being refired. She didn't last long as a pottery instructor, but she was memorable!
Maryjane Carlson

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