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#21 OffCenter

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:40 PM

Thanks, everybody. You've all been helpful. It's sorta my "Duh!" moment because I should have figured this out a year ago.

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#22 Claypple

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 09:29 PM

you can add other things besides beer to make it more plastic (beer provide more bacteria/food source).


Just in case we are missing something here:
Jim, have you tried not only to add the beer to the clay, but also drink it before you use the pugger?
You might be more satisfied with the results if you do both.

jrgpots, your daughter's pug needs CBC with diff and plt, Iron, and ferritin level.




(Yeah, I am bored... )

#23 Pugaboo

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 10:17 PM

My daughter has a pug and it eat clay all the time.. It's called pica, the uncontrollable urge to eat clay. It also processes that clay in my back yard every time she comes to visit. It's also short and not very plastic...


Oh. I'm sorry. You were talking about your pugmil....My mistake..:Psrc="http://ceramicartsda...lt/tongue.gif">



Jed



You beat me to it! I laughed out loud when i read your posting. I sooo need to make a t-shirt that Says "what do you Pug" with a goofy Pug covered in clay having a grand time. I have five Pugs and they would think Pugging my clay would mean leaving me "packages" on it. Gee Mom you need to Pug your clay we'll help! let errr rip gang! Lol thank you for the smile.

Terry
The world is but a canvas to the imagination - Henry David Thoreau

#24 trina

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 06:33 AM


Hi,
As everyone already knows I am very primative and still use a splash pan....WHATEVER! my eyes are too tired....
Anyway back on the topic. Firstly I don't pug my own clay but my neighbour pottery does. I know he pugs from reconstituted clay that has been totally dried out first, pulverized and then water added. We have had conversations about the fact that the water in this area it very very hard. I know he adds a floculant / epsom salt. How much ect not sure but can find out. I will say though I have used his clay and sometimes it is a bit short and sometimes not. I am guessing he isn't that accurate with the amounts.

This might be of some interest to you: http://pubs.usgs.gov...334g/report.pdf

I haven't read it myself as it has some pretty big words but was impressed by the number of pages.

T


Holy Crap, T! I'm not reading that. That looks like something John B would read. But thanks anyway.

Jim



Ya, i get that. Just interested in the relationship between viscosity and plasticity. T

#25 OffCenter

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 07:02 AM

My young potter fiend has a new peter pugger and it ruins his porcelian as far as legs (only good for small pots) and he puts his slop from pan into it. I would like to know this answer-maybe no one throws larger forms with pugged clay???
I almost boughta peter/P but he taked me out of it.



I bought a few extra splash pans with the money I saved.
Mark



I don't think it is the pugmill. I just don't see how the clay could be ruined by the machine itself, especially a particular brand of pugmil.... Yeah, I guess you could buy a lot of splash pans with about $4,000. I bough mine when I ran a business and had money. I could never afford one now. Glad we're such good buds and you'll give me a deal on one of those splash pans.

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#26 OffCenter

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 07:10 AM

Jim, have you tried not only to add the beer to the clay, but also drink it before you use the pugger?
You might be more satisfied with the results if you do both.


Now that my doctor is out of jail again and I'm back on my meds, I don't drink as much, but anytime I add beer to clay, most of the beer goes into me. Maybe I should try putting some Jack Daniels in my clay.

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#27 OffCenter

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 07:14 AM


My daughter has a pug and it eat clay all the time.. It's called pica, the uncontrollable urge to eat clay. It also processes that clay in my back yard every time she comes to visit. It's also short and not very plastic...


Oh. I'm sorry. You were talking about your pugmil....My mistake..:Psrc="http://ceramicartsda...lt/tongue.gif">



Jed



You beat me to it! I laughed out loud when i read your posting. I sooo need to make a t-shirt that Says "what do you Pug" with a goofy Pug covered in clay having a grand time. I have five Pugs and they would think Pugging my clay would mean leaving me "packages" on it. Gee Mom you need to Pug your clay we'll help! let errr rip gang! Lol thank you for the smile.

Terry


Oh crap! I read Jed's post too quickly and didn't catch on. I thought his daughter was a potter and when she visited, she dug clay there. Duh!

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#28 OffCenter

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 07:19 AM

From the manufacturer.

http://www.peterpugg.../porcelain.html


Thanks Heidi! That's very helpful.

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#29 Claypple

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 04:03 PM


From the manufacturer.

http://www.peterpugg.../porcelain.html


Thanks Heidi! That's very helpful.

Jim


OK. I read it too. Before that, we were only adding beer to the clay. Now we put salt in it too?! What is next?

#30 JBaymore

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 05:25 PM

I use a lot of different clays, but probably the one I use the most is cone 6 B-Mix. I think that's the problem. My reclaimed clay has no clay from throwing water and slip that has been dried.


Jim,

You likely are right is the is cone 6 B-mix.

One of the problems with using commercially prepared "stock" clay bodies is that, because they are proprietary formulations, the manufacturers will not share the actual recipes. So we really do not know what is in there and what the proportions are. Makes troubleshooting difficult.

That being said, in order to get a cone 6 clay to really vitrify, the usual high fire (cone 9-10) kind of choice of a potash feldspar to supply the fluxing oxides for the body is not ususally going to work all that well. The proportions of fluxing oxides relative to silica and alumina in feldspars is not ususally providing the "oomph" to get the melt active within the body matrix. So to accomplish this task, the usual "substitution" that happens is to use some or all Nepheline Syenite as a partial or full substitution for a potash feldspar contribution in the body.

Nepheline Syenite is a SODA based material. THIS is where the potential issues begin. The potential issue with this is that Nepheline Syenite is slightly soluble in water (great for carbon trap shinos). And as the Ph of the water supply in the clay body changes.... the level of this solubility changes too.

So....... what I am driving at here is that it is possible that the older clay that has sat around a long time wet before use, and then wet formed and then slowly dried, and then picked up atmosphereic moisture when it was "dry", and then had water from YOUR water source (not the suppliers.....which MIGHT be Ph controlled) added to it.... the water chemistry of the re-mixed body is subtly changing as some sodium ions disolve out of the neph sy content.

This will cause the clay to go "short"...... and eventually when it gets bad enough exhibit some thixotropic qualities. So that might be part or ALL of what you are describing. It fits the situation that the beer and organic stuff growing does not help.

If you are not using a splash pan (like I do not) that likely means that you are throwing pretty dry (like I do). With your skill base, I am guessing that you are a pretty qucik thrower..... not working and working and working and working a piece to death. It seems to me that kind of forming profile would NOT wash out a huge amount of the finer particle clay materials to the extent necessatry to cause the shortness. THAT answer does not make sense to me.

Out of curiosity, do you find that if you let the bags of clay you get from the supplier sit around for a LONG time wet, and that the clay exhibits any similar "short" characteristics? Is it more plastic when you just get it than it is a year later (you might not order that far out)?


best,



........................john
John Baymore
Immediate Past President; Potters Council
Professor of Ceramics; New Hampshire Insitute of Art

http://www.JohnBaymore.com

#31 JBaymore

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 05:29 PM



Hi,
As everyone already knows I am very primative and still use a splash pan....WHATEVER! my eyes are too tired....
Anyway back on the topic. Firstly I don't pug my own clay but my neighbour pottery does. I know he pugs from reconstituted clay that has been totally dried out first, pulverized and then water added. We have had conversations about the fact that the water in this area it very very hard. I know he adds a floculant / epsom salt. How much ect not sure but can find out. I will say though I have used his clay and sometimes it is a bit short and sometimes not. I am guessing he isn't that accurate with the amounts.

This might be of some interest to you: http://pubs.usgs.gov...334g/report.pdf

I haven't read it myself as it has some pretty big words but was impressed by the number of pages.

T


Holy Crap, T! I'm not reading that. That looks like something John B would read. But thanks anyway.

Jim



Ya, i get that. Just interested in the relationship between viscosity and plasticity. T


It is actually the general rheology and shear characteristice that is dominant in the "plastic" qualities of clay that we use. That old ((but intereting) paper is oriented about flotation qualites and particle disbruisement in thin slutrries... for agricultural sealing use.

best,

....................john
John Baymore
Immediate Past President; Potters Council
Professor of Ceramics; New Hampshire Insitute of Art

http://www.JohnBaymore.com

#32 JBaymore

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 05:32 PM

That looks like something John B would read.


Guilty as Charged, your Honor.Posted Image Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

best,

...................john
John Baymore
Immediate Past President; Potters Council
Professor of Ceramics; New Hampshire Insitute of Art

http://www.JohnBaymore.com

#33 OffCenter

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 07:04 PM


I use a lot of different clays, but probably the one I use the most is cone 6 B-Mix. I think that's the problem. My reclaimed clay has no clay from throwing water and slip that has been dried.


Jim,

You likely are right is the is cone 6 B-mix.

One of the problems with using commercially prepared "stock" clay bodies is that, because they are proprietary formulations, the manufacturers will not share the actual recipes. So we really do not know what is in there and what the proportions are. Makes troubleshooting difficult.

That being said, in order to get a cone 6 clay to really vitrify, the usual high fire (cone 9-10) kind of choice of a potash feldspar to supply the fluxing oxides for the body is not ususally going to work all that well. The proportions of fluxing oxides relative to silica and alumina in feldspars is not ususally providing the "oomph" to get the melt active within the body matrix. So to accomplish this task, the usual "substitution" that happens is to use some or all Nepheline Syenite as a partial or full substitution for a potash feldspar contribution in the body.

Nepheline Syenite is a SODA based material. THIS is where the potential issues begin. The potential issue with this is that Nepheline Syenite is slightly soluble in water (great for carbon trap shinos). And as the Ph of the water supply in the clay body changes.... the level of this solubility changes too.

So....... what I am driving at here is that it is possible that the older clay that has sat around a long time wet before use, and then wet formed and then slowly dried, and then picked up atmosphereic moisture when it was "dry", and then had water from YOUR water source (not the suppliers.....which MIGHT be Ph controlled) added to it.... the water chemistry of the re-mixed body is subtly changing as some sodium ions disolve out of the neph sy content.

This will cause the clay to go "short"...... and eventually when it gets bad enough exhibit some thixotropic qualities. So that might be part or ALL of what you are describing. It fits the situation that the beer and organic stuff growing does not help.

If you are not using a splash pan (like I do not) that likely means that you are throwing pretty dry (like I do). With your skill base, I am guessing that you are a pretty qucik thrower..... not working and working and working and working a piece to death. It seems to me that kind of forming profile would NOT wash out a huge amount of the finer particle clay materials to the extent necessatry to cause the shortness. THAT answer does not make sense to me.

Out of curiosity, do you find that if you let the bags of clay you get from the supplier sit around for a LONG time wet, and that the clay exhibits any similar "short" characteristics? Is it more plastic when you just get it than it is a year later (you might not order that far out)?


best,



........................john


Thanks for replying, John. What you say about Neph Sy is very interesting and yet something else to consider. Commercial clay like B-mix rarely gets to be more than 5 or 6 months old but I've don't recall noticing any difference in plasticity between bought clay that just arrived and clay that I've had 6 or so months.

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#34 JBaymore

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 07:15 PM



I use a lot of different clays, but probably the one I use the most is cone 6 B-Mix. I think that's the problem. My reclaimed clay has no clay from throwing water and slip that has been dried.


Jim,

You likely are right is the is cone 6 B-mix.

One of the problems with using commercially prepared "stock" clay bodies is that, because they are proprietary formulations, the manufacturers will not share the actual recipes. So we really do not know what is in there and what the proportions are. Makes troubleshooting difficult.

That being said, in order to get a cone 6 clay to really vitrify, the usual high fire (cone 9-10) kind of choice of a potash feldspar to supply the fluxing oxides for the body is not ususally going to work all that well. The proportions of fluxing oxides relative to silica and alumina in feldspars is not ususally providing the "oomph" to get the melt active within the body matrix. So to accomplish this task, the usual "substitution" that happens is to use some or all Nepheline Syenite as a partial or full substitution for a potash feldspar contribution in the body.

Nepheline Syenite is a SODA based material. THIS is where the potential issues begin. The potential issue with this is that Nepheline Syenite is slightly soluble in water (great for carbon trap shinos). And as the Ph of the water supply in the clay body changes.... the level of this solubility changes too.

So....... what I am driving at here is that it is possible that the older clay that has sat around a long time wet before use, and then wet formed and then slowly dried, and then picked up atmosphereic moisture when it was "dry", and then had water from YOUR water source (not the suppliers.....which MIGHT be Ph controlled) added to it.... the water chemistry of the re-mixed body is subtly changing as some sodium ions disolve out of the neph sy content.

This will cause the clay to go "short"...... and eventually when it gets bad enough exhibit some thixotropic qualities. So that might be part or ALL of what you are describing. It fits the situation that the beer and organic stuff growing does not help.

If you are not using a splash pan (like I do not) that likely means that you are throwing pretty dry (like I do). With your skill base, I am guessing that you are a pretty qucik thrower..... not working and working and working and working a piece to death. It seems to me that kind of forming profile would NOT wash out a huge amount of the finer particle clay materials to the extent necessatry to cause the shortness. THAT answer does not make sense to me.

Out of curiosity, do you find that if you let the bags of clay you get from the supplier sit around for a LONG time wet, and that the clay exhibits any similar "short" characteristics? Is it more plastic when you just get it than it is a year later (you might not order that far out)?


best,



........................john


Thanks for replying, John. What you say about Neph Sy is very interesting and yet something else to consider. Commercial clay like B-mix rarely gets to be more than 5 or 6 months old but I've don't recall noticing any difference in plasticity between bought clay that just arrived and clay that I've had 6 or so months.

Jim


Jim,

If you are game.... try running a coule of FRESH bags of the B-mix thru the pug as an experiment... and see if it "kills" the plasticity. My guess is that it will not.

If it is this neph sy solubility factor........ the longer the clay sits wet... the more the issue will evidence itself. Your accumulated scraps ageing is actually possibly making the matter a bit worse.

best,


.....................john
John Baymore
Immediate Past President; Potters Council
Professor of Ceramics; New Hampshire Insitute of Art

http://www.JohnBaymore.com

#35 OffCenter

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 07:58 AM




I use a lot of different clays, but probably the one I use the most is cone 6 B-Mix. I think that's the problem. My reclaimed clay has no clay from throwing water and slip that has been dried.


Jim,

You likely are right is the is cone 6 B-mix.

One of the problems with using commercially prepared "stock" clay bodies is that, because they are proprietary formulations, the manufacturers will not share the actual recipes. So we really do not know what is in there and what the proportions are. Makes troubleshooting difficult.

That being said, in order to get a cone 6 clay to really vitrify, the usual high fire (cone 9-10) kind of choice of a potash feldspar to supply the fluxing oxides for the body is not ususally going to work all that well. The proportions of fluxing oxides relative to silica and alumina in feldspars is not ususally providing the "oomph" to get the melt active within the body matrix. So to accomplish this task, the usual "substitution" that happens is to use some or all Nepheline Syenite as a partial or full substitution for a potash feldspar contribution in the body.

Nepheline Syenite is a SODA based material. THIS is where the potential issues begin. The potential issue with this is that Nepheline Syenite is slightly soluble in water (great for carbon trap shinos). And as the Ph of the water supply in the clay body changes.... the level of this solubility changes too.

So....... what I am driving at here is that it is possible that the older clay that has sat around a long time wet before use, and then wet formed and then slowly dried, and then picked up atmosphereic moisture when it was "dry", and then had water from YOUR water source (not the suppliers.....which MIGHT be Ph controlled) added to it.... the water chemistry of the re-mixed body is subtly changing as some sodium ions disolve out of the neph sy content.

This will cause the clay to go "short"...... and eventually when it gets bad enough exhibit some thixotropic qualities. So that might be part or ALL of what you are describing. It fits the situation that the beer and organic stuff growing does not help.

If you are not using a splash pan (like I do not) that likely means that you are throwing pretty dry (like I do). With your skill base, I am guessing that you are a pretty qucik thrower..... not working and working and working and working a piece to death. It seems to me that kind of forming profile would NOT wash out a huge amount of the finer particle clay materials to the extent necessatry to cause the shortness. THAT answer does not make sense to me.

Out of curiosity, do you find that if you let the bags of clay you get from the supplier sit around for a LONG time wet, and that the clay exhibits any similar "short" characteristics? Is it more plastic when you just get it than it is a year later (you might not order that far out)?


best,



........................john


Thanks for replying, John. What you say about Neph Sy is very interesting and yet something else to consider. Commercial clay like B-mix rarely gets to be more than 5 or 6 months old but I've don't recall noticing any difference in plasticity between bought clay that just arrived and clay that I've had 6 or so months.

Jim


Jim,

If you are game.... try running a coule of FRESH bags of the B-mix thru the pug as an experiment... and see if it "kills" the plasticity. My guess is that it will not.

If it is this neph sy solubility factor........ the longer the clay sits wet... the more the issue will evidence itself. Your accumulated scraps ageing is actually possibly making the matter a bit worse.

best,


.....................john


Will test it. Thanks much.

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#36 JBaymore

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 08:25 AM

Jim,



I'm very interested to hear the results.


best,



............john
John Baymore
Immediate Past President; Potters Council
Professor of Ceramics; New Hampshire Insitute of Art

http://www.JohnBaymore.com

#37 jrgpots

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 08:38 PM


you can add other things besides beer to make it more plastic (beer provide more bacteria/food source).


Just in case we are missing something here:
Jim, have you tried not only to add the beer to the clay, but also drink it before you use the pugger?
You might be more satisfied with the results if you do both.

jrgpots, your daughter's pug needs CBC with diff and plt, Iron, and ferritin level.


Thanks for the follow up. I thought my attempt at humor had fallen completely on deaf ears. Here's to a little iron def anemia.

Jed

(Yeah, I am bored... )






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