What Do You Pug?

[OffCenter]

 

Jim, have you tried not only to add the beer to the clay, but also drink it before you use the pugger?

You might be more satisfied with the results if you do both.

 

 

 

Now that my doctor is out of jail again and I'm back on my meds, I don't drink as much, but anytime I add beer to clay, most of the beer goes into me. Maybe I should try putting some Jack Daniels in my clay.

 

Jim

[OffCenter]

My daughter has a pug and it eat clay all the time.. It's called pica, the uncontrollable urge to eat clay. It also processes that clay in my back yard every time she comes to visit. It's also short and not very plastic...

 

 

Oh. I'm sorry. You were talking about your pugmil....My mistake..:Psrc="http://ceramicartsdaily.org/community/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif">

 

 

 

Jed

 

 

 

You beat me to it! I laughed out loud when i read your posting. I sooo need to make a t-shirt that Says "what do you Pug" with a goofy Pug covered in clay having a grand time. I have five Pugs and they would think Pugging my clay would mean leaving me "packages" on it. Gee Mom you need to Pug your clay we'll help! let errr rip gang! Lol thank you for the smile.

 

Terry

 

 

Oh crap! I read Jed's post too quickly and didn't catch on. I thought his daughter was a potter and when she visited, she dug clay there. Duh!

 

Jim

[OffCenter]

From the manufacturer.

 

http://www.peterpugg.../porcelain.html

 

 

Thanks Heidi! That's very helpful.

 

Jim

[Claypple]

From the manufacturer.

 

http://www.peterpugg.../porcelain.html

 

 

Thanks Heidi! That's very helpful.

 

Jim

 

 

OK. I read it too. Before that, we were only adding beer to the clay. Now we put salt in it too?! What is next?

[Guest JBaymore]

I use a lot of different clays, but probably the one I use the most is cone 6 B-Mix. I think that's the problem. My reclaimed clay has no clay from throwing water and slip that has been dried.

 

Jim,

 

You likely are right is the is cone 6 B-mix.

 

One of the problems with using commercially prepared "stock" clay bodies is that, because they are proprietary formulations, the manufacturers will not share the actual recipes. So we really do not know what is in there and what the proportions are. Makes troubleshooting difficult.

 

That being said, in order to get a cone 6 clay to really vitrify, the usual high fire (cone 9-10) kind of choice of a potash feldspar to supply the fluxing oxides for the body is not ususally going to work all that well. The proportions of fluxing oxides relative to silica and alumina in feldspars is not ususally providing the "oomph" to get the melt active within the body matrix. So to accomplish this task, the usual "substitution" that happens is to use some or all Nepheline Syenite as a partial or full substitution for a potash feldspar contribution in the body.

 

Nepheline Syenite is a SODA based material. THIS is where the potential issues begin. The potential issue with this is that Nepheline Syenite is slightly soluble in water (great for carbon trap shinos). And as the Ph of the water supply in the clay body changes.... the level of this solubility changes too.

 

So....... what I am driving at here is that it is possible that the older clay that has sat around a long time wet before use, and then wet formed and then slowly dried, and then picked up atmosphereic moisture when it was "dry", and then had water from YOUR water source (not the suppliers.....which MIGHT be Ph controlled) added to it.... the water chemistry of the re-mixed body is subtly changing as some sodium ions disolve out of the neph sy content.

 

This will cause the clay to go "short"...... and eventually when it gets bad enough exhibit some thixotropic qualities. So that might be part or ALL of what you are describing. It fits the situation that the beer and organic stuff growing does not help.

 

If you are not using a splash pan (like I do not) that likely means that you are throwing pretty dry (like I do). With your skill base, I am guessing that you are a pretty qucik thrower..... not working and working and working and working a piece to death. It seems to me that kind of forming profile would NOT wash out a huge amount of the finer particle clay materials to the extent necessatry to cause the shortness. THAT answer does not make sense to me.

 

Out of curiosity, do you find that if you let the bags of clay you get from the supplier sit around for a LONG time wet, and that the clay exhibits any similar "short" characteristics? Is it more plastic when you just get it than it is a year later (you might not order that far out)?

 

 

best,

 

 

 

........................john

[Guest JBaymore]

Hi,

As everyone already knows I am very primative and still use a splash pan....WHATEVER! my eyes are too tired....

Anyway back on the topic. Firstly I don't pug my own clay but my neighbour pottery does. I know he pugs from reconstituted clay that has been totally dried out first, pulverized and then water added. We have had conversations about the fact that the water in this area it very very hard. I know he adds a floculant / epsom salt. How much ect not sure but can find out. I will say though I have used his clay and sometimes it is a bit short and sometimes not. I am guessing he isn't that accurate with the amounts.

 

This might be of some interest to you: http://pubs.usgs.gov...334g/report.pdf

 

I haven't read it myself as it has some pretty big words but was impressed by the number of pages.

 

T

 

 

Holy Crap, T! I'm not reading that. That looks like something John B would read. But thanks anyway.

 

Jim

 

 

 

Ya, i get that. Just interested in the relationship between viscosity and plasticity. T

 

 

It is actually the general rheology and shear characteristice that is dominant in the "plastic" qualities of clay that we use. That old ((but intereting) paper is oriented about flotation qualites and particle disbruisement in thin slutrries... for agricultural sealing use.

 

best,

 

....................john

[Guest JBaymore]

That looks like something John B would read.

 

Guilty as Charged, your Honor.

 

best,

 

...................john

[OffCenter]

I use a lot of different clays, but probably the one I use the most is cone 6 B-Mix. I think that's the problem. My reclaimed clay has no clay from throwing water and slip that has been dried.

 

Jim,

 

You likely are right is the is cone 6 B-mix.

 

One of the problems with using commercially prepared "stock" clay bodies is that, because they are proprietary formulations, the manufacturers will not share the actual recipes. So we really do not know what is in there and what the proportions are. Makes troubleshooting difficult.

 

That being said, in order to get a cone 6 clay to really vitrify, the usual high fire (cone 9-10) kind of choice of a potash feldspar to supply the fluxing oxides for the body is not ususally going to work all that well. The proportions of fluxing oxides relative to silica and alumina in feldspars is not ususally providing the "oomph" to get the melt active within the body matrix. So to accomplish this task, the usual "substitution" that happens is to use some or all Nepheline Syenite as a partial or full substitution for a potash feldspar contribution in the body.

 

Nepheline Syenite is a SODA based material. THIS is where the potential issues begin. The potential issue with this is that Nepheline Syenite is slightly soluble in water (great for carbon trap shinos). And as the Ph of the water supply in the clay body changes.... the level of this solubility changes too.

 

So....... what I am driving at here is that it is possible that the older clay that has sat around a long time wet before use, and then wet formed and then slowly dried, and then picked up atmosphereic moisture when it was "dry", and then had water from YOUR water source (not the suppliers.....which MIGHT be Ph controlled) added to it.... the water chemistry of the re-mixed body is subtly changing as some sodium ions disolve out of the neph sy content.

 

This will cause the clay to go "short"...... and eventually when it gets bad enough exhibit some thixotropic qualities. So that might be part or ALL of what you are describing. It fits the situation that the beer and organic stuff growing does not help.

 

If you are not using a splash pan (like I do not) that likely means that you are throwing pretty dry (like I do). With your skill base, I am guessing that you are a pretty qucik thrower..... not working and working and working and working a piece to death. It seems to me that kind of forming profile would NOT wash out a huge amount of the finer particle clay materials to the extent necessatry to cause the shortness. THAT answer does not make sense to me.

 

Out of curiosity, do you find that if you let the bags of clay you get from the supplier sit around for a LONG time wet, and that the clay exhibits any similar "short" characteristics? Is it more plastic when you just get it than it is a year later (you might not order that far out)?

 

 

best,

 

 

 

........................john

 

 

Thanks for replying, John. What you say about Neph Sy is very interesting and yet something else to consider. Commercial clay like B-mix rarely gets to be more than 5 or 6 months old but I've don't recall noticing any difference in plasticity between bought clay that just arrived and clay that I've had 6 or so months.

 

Jim

[Guest JBaymore]

I use a lot of different clays, but probably the one I use the most is cone 6 B-Mix. I think that's the problem. My reclaimed clay has no clay from throwing water and slip that has been dried.

 

Jim,

 

You likely are right is the is cone 6 B-mix.

 

One of the problems with using commercially prepared "stock" clay bodies is that, because they are proprietary formulations, the manufacturers will not share the actual recipes. So we really do not know what is in there and what the proportions are. Makes troubleshooting difficult.

 

That being said, in order to get a cone 6 clay to really vitrify, the usual high fire (cone 9-10) kind of choice of a potash feldspar to supply the fluxing oxides for the body is not ususally going to work all that well. The proportions of fluxing oxides relative to silica and alumina in feldspars is not ususally providing the "oomph" to get the melt active within the body matrix. So to accomplish this task, the usual "substitution" that happens is to use some or all Nepheline Syenite as a partial or full substitution for a potash feldspar contribution in the body.

 

Nepheline Syenite is a SODA based material. THIS is where the potential issues begin. The potential issue with this is that Nepheline Syenite is slightly soluble in water (great for carbon trap shinos). And as the Ph of the water supply in the clay body changes.... the level of this solubility changes too.

 

So....... what I am driving at here is that it is possible that the older clay that has sat around a long time wet before use, and then wet formed and then slowly dried, and then picked up atmosphereic moisture when it was "dry", and then had water from YOUR water source (not the suppliers.....which MIGHT be Ph controlled) added to it.... the water chemistry of the re-mixed body is subtly changing as some sodium ions disolve out of the neph sy content.

 

This will cause the clay to go "short"...... and eventually when it gets bad enough exhibit some thixotropic qualities. So that might be part or ALL of what you are describing. It fits the situation that the beer and organic stuff growing does not help.

 

If you are not using a splash pan (like I do not) that likely means that you are throwing pretty dry (like I do). With your skill base, I am guessing that you are a pretty qucik thrower..... not working and working and working and working a piece to death. It seems to me that kind of forming profile would NOT wash out a huge amount of the finer particle clay materials to the extent necessatry to cause the shortness. THAT answer does not make sense to me.

 

Out of curiosity, do you find that if you let the bags of clay you get from the supplier sit around for a LONG time wet, and that the clay exhibits any similar "short" characteristics? Is it more plastic when you just get it than it is a year later (you might not order that far out)?

 

 

best,

 

 

 

........................john

 

 

Thanks for replying, John. What you say about Neph Sy is very interesting and yet something else to consider. Commercial clay like B-mix rarely gets to be more than 5 or 6 months old but I've don't recall noticing any difference in plasticity between bought clay that just arrived and clay that I've had 6 or so months.

 

Jim

 

 

Jim,

 

If you are game.... try running a coule of FRESH bags of the B-mix thru the pug as an experiment... and see if it "kills" the plasticity. My guess is that it will not.

 

If it is this neph sy solubility factor........ the longer the clay sits wet... the more the issue will evidence itself. Your accumulated scraps ageing is actually possibly making the matter a bit worse.

 

best,

 

 

.....................john

[OffCenter]

I use a lot of different clays, but probably the one I use the most is cone 6 B-Mix. I think that's the problem. My reclaimed clay has no clay from throwing water and slip that has been dried.

 

Jim,

 

You likely are right is the is cone 6 B-mix.

 

One of the problems with using commercially prepared "stock" clay bodies is that, because they are proprietary formulations, the manufacturers will not share the actual recipes. So we really do not know what is in there and what the proportions are. Makes troubleshooting difficult.

 

That being said, in order to get a cone 6 clay to really vitrify, the usual high fire (cone 9-10) kind of choice of a potash feldspar to supply the fluxing oxides for the body is not ususally going to work all that well. The proportions of fluxing oxides relative to silica and alumina in feldspars is not ususally providing the "oomph" to get the melt active within the body matrix. So to accomplish this task, the usual "substitution" that happens is to use some or all Nepheline Syenite as a partial or full substitution for a potash feldspar contribution in the body.

 

Nepheline Syenite is a SODA based material. THIS is where the potential issues begin. The potential issue with this is that Nepheline Syenite is slightly soluble in water (great for carbon trap shinos). And as the Ph of the water supply in the clay body changes.... the level of this solubility changes too.

 

So....... what I am driving at here is that it is possible that the older clay that has sat around a long time wet before use, and then wet formed and then slowly dried, and then picked up atmosphereic moisture when it was "dry", and then had water from YOUR water source (not the suppliers.....which MIGHT be Ph controlled) added to it.... the water chemistry of the re-mixed body is subtly changing as some sodium ions disolve out of the neph sy content.

 

This will cause the clay to go "short"...... and eventually when it gets bad enough exhibit some thixotropic qualities. So that might be part or ALL of what you are describing. It fits the situation that the beer and organic stuff growing does not help.

 

If you are not using a splash pan (like I do not) that likely means that you are throwing pretty dry (like I do). With your skill base, I am guessing that you are a pretty qucik thrower..... not working and working and working and working a piece to death. It seems to me that kind of forming profile would NOT wash out a huge amount of the finer particle clay materials to the extent necessatry to cause the shortness. THAT answer does not make sense to me.

 

Out of curiosity, do you find that if you let the bags of clay you get from the supplier sit around for a LONG time wet, and that the clay exhibits any similar "short" characteristics? Is it more plastic when you just get it than it is a year later (you might not order that far out)?

 

 

best,

 

 

 

........................john

 

 

Thanks for replying, John. What you say about Neph Sy is very interesting and yet something else to consider. Commercial clay like B-mix rarely gets to be more than 5 or 6 months old but I've don't recall noticing any difference in plasticity between bought clay that just arrived and clay that I've had 6 or so months.

 

Jim

 

 

Jim,

 

If you are game.... try running a coule of FRESH bags of the B-mix thru the pug as an experiment... and see if it "kills" the plasticity. My guess is that it will not.

 

If it is this neph sy solubility factor........ the longer the clay sits wet... the more the issue will evidence itself. Your accumulated scraps ageing is actually possibly making the matter a bit worse.

 

best,

 

 

.....................john

 

 

Will test it. Thanks much.

 

Jim

[Guest JBaymore]

Jim,

 

 

 

I'm very interested to hear the results.

 

 

best,

 

 

 

............john

[jrgpots]

you can add other things besides beer to make it more plastic (beer provide more bacteria/food source).

 

 

Just in case we are missing something here:

Jim, have you tried not only to add the beer to the clay, but also drink it before you use the pugger?

You might be more satisfied with the results if you do both.

 

jrgpots, your daughter's pug needs CBC with diff and plt, Iron, and ferritin level.

Thanks for the follow up. I thought my attempt at humor had fallen completely on deaf ears. Here's to a little iron def anemia.

 

Jed

(Yeah, I am bored... )