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#1 OffCenter

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 01:02 PM

I may have figured out why my pugmill ruins clay. My question is for those who love the way their reclaimed clay comes out of the pugmill. What exactly do you pug? Is it mostly scraps from the splashpan (if you're primitive enough to use one), pots that never make it off the wheel, etc. or is it mostly finished pots that have dried and were ready to be bisqued but you scrapped because they cracked or broke or it didn't pass the fresh eyes test?

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#2 perkolator

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 01:17 PM

how is your pug mill "ruining" your clay?

#3 OffCenter

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:02 PM

how is your pug mill "ruining" your clay?


It comes out super short, no legs, unplastic, crap clay. Aging doesn't help. Adding beer doesn't help.

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#4 Benzine

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:25 PM

I may have figured out why my pugmill ruins clay. My question is for those who love the way their reclaimed clay comes out of the pugmill. What exactly do you pug? Is it mostly scraps from the splashpan (if you're primitive enough to use one), pots that never make it off the wheel, etc. or is it mostly finished pots that have dried and were ready to be bisqued but you scrapped because they cracked or broke or it didn't pass the fresh eyes test?

Jim


I always meant to ask you, about your problems with pugged clay, and why you thought you had an issue.

I don't currently use, or even have, a pug mill. When I did use one, I put pretty much everything in the mill; slaked down clay, splash pan slop (I am that primitive, I basically create projects by beating them with a stick, while grunting), borderline leatherhard clay, that was starting to crack when molded. I would toss all that together, found that I got a fairly consistent result. I honestly didn't use it much for throwing, mostly hand building projects, so maybe that's why I didn't notice an issue.
"Anything worth believing, is worth questioning"

#5 perkolator

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:28 PM

what's your process for reclaiming clay? how long are you aging for?

when clay dries out, it loses pretty much all of the plasticity and has to start over once reconstituted - so if you're using reclaim that's been dried out and didn't have time to sit in a slop barrel/slake down for a decent amount of time to allow bacterial growth, this could be why. if you're making fresh clay from dry-bagged material, same thing, it needs to "age" and get funky from the bacteria that make it more plastic (due to acetic acid excrement); also there's the issue of the clay particulates not being fully saturated yet if using dry material, which adds to shortness since the particulates lose much of the meniscus of water surrounding them once they soak up this water when it equalizes -- usually mixing a wetter batch of clay will help this a tad.

as for plasticizers, you can add other things besides beer to make it more plastic (beer provide more bacteria/food source). simply adding more clay with organic content (like ball clays) can also help. industry typically uses bentonites/hectorites, VeeGum T, or cellulose/vegetable gums to help modify the body and be more plastic. immediate plasticizers to try are vinegars or epsom salts, both of which I believe change the chemistry making the particles negatively charged/more acidic, essentially flocculating the clay body.

#6 TJR

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:34 PM

I also use a splash pan which I made myself out of wood. I don't own a pug mill. I save all my throwing water and slip, with leather hard trimmings. I let this age in a 5 gallon bucket, then dry it out on a plaster bat.Could you be putting too much dry material through your pug?
Maybe its all that Lizella clay.[joking!].
TJR. add" creepy" smiley face here.

#7 OffCenter

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:32 PM

what's your process for reclaiming clay? how long are you aging for?

when clay dries out, it loses pretty much all of the plasticity and has to start over once reconstituted - so if you're using reclaim that's been dried out and didn't have time to sit in a slop barrel/slake down for a decent amount of time to allow bacterial growth, this could be why. if you're making fresh clay from dry-bagged material, same thing, it needs to "age" and get funky from the bacteria that make it more plastic (due to acetic acid excrement); also there's the issue of the clay particulates not being fully saturated yet if using dry material, which adds to shortness since the particulates lose much of the meniscus of water surrounding them once they soak up this water when it equalizes -- usually mixing a wetter batch of clay will help this a tad.

as for plasticizers, you can add other things besides beer to make it more plastic (beer provide more bacteria/food source). simply adding more clay with organic content (like ball clays) can also help. industry typically uses bentonites/hectorites, VeeGum T, or cellulose/vegetable gums to help modify the body and be more plastic. immediate plasticizers to try are vinegars or epsom salts, both of which I believe change the chemistry making the particles negatively charged/more acidic, essentially flocculating the clay body.


Thanks, Perkolator, I know most of what you point out above so that's why it blows my mind that the pugmill seems to ruin my clay. In my first life as a potter I used a Walker that was as much or more a mixer than a pugmill and a large blue bird. I'd age trash cans of clay for 3 or 4 months and it was good. Now I use a Peter Pugger and I've got clay that has been in bags under a tarp for 11 months through a Georgia summer so it has a fine, thick coat of green slime over the outside but the clay is no more plastic than the day I pugged it.

Here's what I'm finally thinking: Any pot that I destroy while still wet, I just wedge up almost immediately and it is okay. what I pug is almost all pots that were completely dry and ready to bisque and I tossed when I realized they weren't good enough to fire, so my guess is that during the throwing, enough of the most plastic parts of the clay body were washed away. So, I'm thinking that I just need to replace those fine particles when I pug with, as you suggest above, ball clay and maybe a little bentonite? The reason I'm asking for advice is that I don't crank up the pugmill unless I'm going to pug at least 500 lbs and haven't tested my theory yet. What you say about vinegar and epsom salts is interesting. I use epsom salt in glazes but have never used it in a clay body. I may test that at some point but right now I'm more interested in just replacing what was washed out.

Ball clay is probably the best thing to add, right? Should I add a little bentonite? Any other fine particle clay? I have the same problem with porcelain. Will ball clay make porcelain less translucent?

Thanks in advance for suggestions from anyone.

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#8 Benzine

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:37 PM

You're right Jim, the Walker is almost a mixer. I love those things. They are built like tanks, and you can fit so much clay in there at a time. If I had space in my classroom, I'd be hunting for a used one, all over.
"Anything worth believing, is worth questioning"

#9 jrgpots

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:41 PM

My daughter has a pug and it eat clay all the time.. It's called pica, the uncontrollable urge to eat clay. It also processes that clay in my back yard every time she comes to visit. It's also short and not very plastic...


Oh. I'm sorry. You were talking about your pugmil....My mistake..:Psrc="http://ceramicartsda...lt/tongue.gif">



Jed

#10 OffCenter

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:43 PM


I may have figured out why my pugmill ruins clay. My question is for those who love the way their reclaimed clay comes out of the pugmill. What exactly do you pug? Is it mostly scraps from the splashpan (if you're primitive enough to use one), pots that never make it off the wheel, etc. or is it mostly finished pots that have dried and were ready to be bisqued but you scrapped because they cracked or broke or it didn't pass the fresh eyes test?

Jim


I always meant to ask you, about your problems with pugged clay, and why you thought you had an issue.

I don't currently use, or even have, a pug mill. When I did use one, I put pretty much everything in the mill; slaked down clay, splash pan slop (I am that primitive, I basically create projects by beating them with a stick, while grunting), borderline leatherhard clay, that was starting to crack when molded. I would toss all that together, found that I got a fairly consistent result. I honestly didn't use it much for throwing, mostly hand building projects, so maybe that's why I didn't notice an issue.


That's the reason for the post. People here rave about how wonderful their pugged clay is. That splash pan slop is the fine stuff that makes their clay plastic. Good grief! How ironic would that be that I have to buy a goddamn splash pan because I threw mine away.

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#11 Pres

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:55 PM

You're right Jim, the Walker is almost a mixer. I love those things. They are built like tanks, and you can fit so much clay in there at a time. If I had space in my classroom, I'd be hunting for a used one, all over.


I used the Walker at school for 25 years, we bought it new. I would pug clay that had been slaked down and left sit for a month, mixing this with pots that had been slopped for some reason or other but kept wet. I went through major pugging at the end of the year, filling 55 gal. buckets with new clay. These I would cover with old wet towels and put the tight lids on over top. In the Fall when we returned, I would start from boxed clay that was new for the Ceramics 1's. The Ceramics 2 students had to use the old clay-poor things! The old clay had become so plastic over the summer much better than the new boxed stuff. Their gripe was that they had to dig it out of the bucket. I always found that a mix of slaked clay and pots that had been leather hard or less worked to together to have a pretty reasonable clay.

Nowadays I recycle by throwing my splash pan slop and trimmings into a bag, spray some water inside, twist it closed, and turn the bag upside down. Usually two weeks later I wedge it up to reuse. At this point I don't have problems wedging 15-20 lb at a time, and usually do so at least 400 turns when it is that size. Most times my bag fulls are smaller. If need be I use cut and smash with finger pokes in each bread piece spraying with water, slamming, turning and cutting until consistent then return to cone wedging.Then I usually leave this set for two weeks before use.

Simply retired teacher, not dead, living the dream. on and on and. . . . on. . . .                                                                                 http://picworkspottery.blogspot.com/


#12 trina

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:58 PM

Hi,
As everyone already knows I am very primative and still use a splash pan....WHATEVER! my eyes are too tired....
Anyway back on the topic. Firstly I don't pug my own clay but my neighbour pottery does. I know he pugs from reconstituted clay that has been totally dried out first, pulverized and then water added. We have had conversations about the fact that the water in this area it very very hard. I know he adds a floculant / epsom salt. How much ect not sure but can find out. I will say though I have used his clay and sometimes it is a bit short and sometimes not. I am guessing he isn't that accurate with the amounts.

This might be of some interest to you: http://pubs.usgs.gov...334g/report.pdf

I haven't read it myself as it has some pretty big words but was impressed by the number of pages.

T

#13 Benzine

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:59 PM



I may have figured out why my pugmill ruins clay. My question is for those who love the way their reclaimed clay comes out of the pugmill. What exactly do you pug? Is it mostly scraps from the splashpan (if you're primitive enough to use one), pots that never make it off the wheel, etc. or is it mostly finished pots that have dried and were ready to be bisqued but you scrapped because they cracked or broke or it didn't pass the fresh eyes test?

Jim


I always meant to ask you, about your problems with pugged clay, and why you thought you had an issue.

I don't currently use, or even have, a pug mill. When I did use one, I put pretty much everything in the mill; slaked down clay, splash pan slop (I am that primitive, I basically create projects by beating them with a stick, while grunting), borderline leatherhard clay, that was starting to crack when molded. I would toss all that together, found that I got a fairly consistent result. I honestly didn't use it much for throwing, mostly hand building projects, so maybe that's why I didn't notice an issue.


That's the reason for the post. People here rave about how wonderful their pugged clay is. That splash pan slop is the fine stuff that makes their clay plastic. Good grief! How ironic would that be that I have to buy a goddamn splash pan because I threw mine away.

Jim


I just don't see you getting a splash pan, or maybe I'm just hoping you don't, as I believe that is one of the signs of the apocalypse. You said you use a sponge, held against the wheel. Couldn't you just use the water/ slurry, you squeeze from the sponge? I always have a nice layer of settled clay, in the bottom of my water bucket anyway. The only thing a splash pan might have, that you wouldn't are the scraps, that some potter's just let fly off in their splash pan.
"Anything worth believing, is worth questioning"

#14 atanzey

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 04:07 PM

I pug everything - rehydrated greenware, splash pan waste, slurry bucket (after letting it dry out to plastic consistency, of course). I try pretty hard to keep the fine slip in it, because I've assumed that it would lose plasticity without it. In addition to that, I usually do a half-to-half (roughly) ratio of recycle to new clay. Yes, I pug my new clay. When it's brand new, it's just right, but since I buy in bulk, by the time I use the last boxes, it needs the recycle to soften it up.

Alice

#15 Mark C.

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 04:23 PM

My young potter fiend has a new peter pugger and it ruins his porcelian as far as legs (only good for small pots) and he puts his slop from pan into it. I would like to know this answer-maybe no one throws larger forms with pugged clay???
I almost boughta peter/P but he taked me out of it.



I bought a few extra splash pans with the money I saved.
Mark


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www.liscomhillpottery.com

#16 Min

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 05:02 PM


what's your process for reclaiming clay? how long are you aging for?

when clay dries out, it loses pretty much all of the plasticity and has to start over once reconstituted - so if you're using reclaim that's been dried out and didn't have time to sit in a slop barrel/slake down for a decent amount of time to allow bacterial growth, this could be why. if you're making fresh clay from dry-bagged material, same thing, it needs to "age" and get funky from the bacteria that make it more plastic (due to acetic acid excrement); also there's the issue of the clay particulates not being fully saturated yet if using dry material, which adds to shortness since the particulates lose much of the meniscus of water surrounding them once they soak up this water when it equalizes -- usually mixing a wetter batch of clay will help this a tad.

as for plasticizers, you can add other things besides beer to make it more plastic (beer provide more bacteria/food source). simply adding more clay with organic content (like ball clays) can also help. industry typically uses bentonites/hectorites, VeeGum T, or cellulose/vegetable gums to help modify the body and be more plastic. immediate plasticizers to try are vinegars or epsom salts, both of which I believe change the chemistry making the particles negatively charged/more acidic, essentially flocculating the clay body.


Thanks, Perkolator, I know most of what you point out above so that's why it blows my mind that the pugmill seems to ruin my clay. In my first life as a potter I used a Walker that was as much or more a mixer than a pugmill and a large blue bird. I'd age trash cans of clay for 3 or 4 months and it was good. Now I use a Peter Pugger and I've got clay that has been in bags under a tarp for 11 months through a Georgia summer so it has a fine, thick coat of green slime over the outside but the clay is no more plastic than the day I pugged it.

Here's what I'm finally thinking: Any pot that I destroy while still wet, I just wedge up almost immediately and it is okay. what I pug is almost all pots that were completely dry and ready to bisque and I tossed when I realized they weren't good enough to fire, so my guess is that during the throwing, enough of the most plastic parts of the clay body were washed away. So, I'm thinking that I just need to replace those fine particles when I pug with, as you suggest above, ball clay and maybe a little bentonite? The reason I'm asking for advice is that I don't crank up the pugmill unless I'm going to pug at least 500 lbs and haven't tested my theory yet. What you say about vinegar and epsom salts is interesting. I use epsom salt in glazes but have never used it in a clay body. I may test that at some point but right now I'm more interested in just replacing what was washed out.

Ball clay is probably the best thing to add, right? Should I add a little bentonite? Any other fine particle clay? I have the same problem with porcelain. Will ball clay make porcelain less translucent?

Thanks in advance for suggestions from anyone.

Jim

I have only been using a pugmill for a few years but for what it's worth: I mix fresh clay out the box with trimmings, dry pots, and yes the dreaded splashpan mess, including the sloppy slip throwing water that accumulates in the bottom of the pan, I'll also throw in throwing water instead of fresh tap water. Usually about 1/2 scrap and 1/2 fresh clay. I was always under the impression that the throwing water or splashpan sludge contains the finer particles that aid in plasticity. I usually mix up the clay a day or two before I need it and it's good to throw.

If you need to add a plasticizer I would go with macaloid. 2% will plasticize a porcelain body containing no ball clay whatsoever so even 1/2 or 1/4 of that amount would probably suffice, might be a pain mixing it and getting the weights right though. Ball clay additions are going to mess up your non porous clay unless you then add more flux to it. Plus ball clay often contains lignites which also would be an issue with a white clay.

Min

#17 OffCenter

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:16 PM




I may have figured out why my pugmill ruins clay. My question is for those who love the way their reclaimed clay comes out of the pugmill. What exactly do you pug? Is it mostly scraps from the splashpan (if you're primitive enough to use one), pots that never make it off the wheel, etc. or is it mostly finished pots that have dried and were ready to be bisqued but you scrapped because they cracked or broke or it didn't pass the fresh eyes test?

Jim


I always meant to ask you, about your problems with pugged clay, and why you thought you had an issue.

I don't currently use, or even have, a pug mill. When I did use one, I put pretty much everything in the mill; slaked down clay, splash pan slop (I am that primitive, I basically create projects by beating them with a stick, while grunting), borderline leatherhard clay, that was starting to crack when molded. I would toss all that together, found that I got a fairly consistent result. I honestly didn't use it much for throwing, mostly hand building projects, so maybe that's why I didn't notice an issue.


That's the reason for the post. People here rave about how wonderful their pugged clay is. That splash pan slop is the fine stuff that makes their clay plastic. Good grief! How ironic would that be that I have to buy a goddamn splash pan because I threw mine away.

Jim


I just don't see you getting a splash pan, or maybe I'm just hoping you don't, as I believe that is one of the signs of the apocalypse. You said you use a sponge, held against the wheel. Couldn't you just use the water/ slurry, you squeeze from the sponge? I always have a nice layer of settled clay, in the bottom of my water bucket anyway. The only thing a splash pan might have, that you wouldn't are the scraps, that some potter's just let fly off in their splash pan.


Yeah, that'll work. I actually use that with the wet clay i wedge up but I could put that in the buckets with the dry clay and let it dry out.

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#18 OffCenter

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:21 PM

I also use a splash pan which I made myself out of wood. I don't own a pug mill. I save all my throwing water and slip, with leather hard trimmings. I let this age in a 5 gallon bucket, then dry it out on a plaster bat.Could you be putting too much dry material through your pug?
Maybe its all that Lizella clay.[joking!].
TJR. add" creepy" smiley face here.


I use a lot of different clays, but probably the one I use the most is cone 6 B-Mix. I think that's the problem. My reclaimed clay has no clay from throwing water and slip that has been dried.

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#19 OffCenter

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:29 PM

Hi,
As everyone already knows I am very primative and still use a splash pan....WHATEVER! my eyes are too tired....
Anyway back on the topic. Firstly I don't pug my own clay but my neighbour pottery does. I know he pugs from reconstituted clay that has been totally dried out first, pulverized and then water added. We have had conversations about the fact that the water in this area it very very hard. I know he adds a floculant / epsom salt. How much ect not sure but can find out. I will say though I have used his clay and sometimes it is a bit short and sometimes not. I am guessing he isn't that accurate with the amounts.

This might be of some interest to you: http://pubs.usgs.gov...334g/report.pdf

I haven't read it myself as it has some pretty big words but was impressed by the number of pages.

T


Holy Crap, T! I'm not reading that. That looks like something John B would read. But thanks anyway.

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#20 OffCenter

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:37 PM



what's your process for reclaiming clay? how long are you aging for?

when clay dries out, it loses pretty much all of the plasticity and has to start over once reconstituted - so if you're using reclaim that's been dried out and didn't have time to sit in a slop barrel/slake down for a decent amount of time to allow bacterial growth, this could be why. if you're making fresh clay from dry-bagged material, same thing, it needs to "age" and get funky from the bacteria that make it more plastic (due to acetic acid excrement); also there's the issue of the clay particulates not being fully saturated yet if using dry material, which adds to shortness since the particulates lose much of the meniscus of water surrounding them once they soak up this water when it equalizes -- usually mixing a wetter batch of clay will help this a tad.

as for plasticizers, you can add other things besides beer to make it more plastic (beer provide more bacteria/food source). simply adding more clay with organic content (like ball clays) can also help. industry typically uses bentonites/hectorites, VeeGum T, or cellulose/vegetable gums to help modify the body and be more plastic. immediate plasticizers to try are vinegars or epsom salts, both of which I believe change the chemistry making the particles negatively charged/more acidic, essentially flocculating the clay body.


Thanks, Perkolator, I know most of what you point out above so that's why it blows my mind that the pugmill seems to ruin my clay. In my first life as a potter I used a Walker that was as much or more a mixer than a pugmill and a large blue bird. I'd age trash cans of clay for 3 or 4 months and it was good. Now I use a Peter Pugger and I've got clay that has been in bags under a tarp for 11 months through a Georgia summer so it has a fine, thick coat of green slime over the outside but the clay is no more plastic than the day I pugged it.

Here's what I'm finally thinking: Any pot that I destroy while still wet, I just wedge up almost immediately and it is okay. what I pug is almost all pots that were completely dry and ready to bisque and I tossed when I realized they weren't good enough to fire, so my guess is that during the throwing, enough of the most plastic parts of the clay body were washed away. So, I'm thinking that I just need to replace those fine particles when I pug with, as you suggest above, ball clay and maybe a little bentonite? The reason I'm asking for advice is that I don't crank up the pugmill unless I'm going to pug at least 500 lbs and haven't tested my theory yet. What you say about vinegar and epsom salts is interesting. I use epsom salt in glazes but have never used it in a clay body. I may test that at some point but right now I'm more interested in just replacing what was washed out.

Ball clay is probably the best thing to add, right? Should I add a little bentonite? Any other fine particle clay? I have the same problem with porcelain. Will ball clay make porcelain less translucent?

Thanks in advance for suggestions from anyone.

Jim

I have only been using a pugmill for a few years but for what it's worth: I mix fresh clay out the box with trimmings, dry pots, and yes the dreaded splashpan mess, including the sloppy slip throwing water that accumulates in the bottom of the pan, I'll also throw in throwing water instead of fresh tap water. Usually about 1/2 scrap and 1/2 fresh clay. I was always under the impression that the throwing water or splashpan sludge contains the finer particles that aid in plasticity. I usually mix up the clay a day or two before I need it and it's good to throw.

If you need to add a plasticizer I would go with macaloid. 2% will plasticize a porcelain body containing no ball clay whatsoever so even 1/2 or 1/4 of that amount would probably suffice, might be a pain mixing it and getting the weights right though. Ball clay additions are going to mess up your non porous clay unless you then add more flux to it. Plus ball clay often contains lignites which also would be an issue with a white clay.

Min


Thank for the info! BTW, who are you Masked-Person-From-The-Great-White-North-Who-Knows-A-Lot?

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.




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